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26 Feb 2003 : Column 361—continued
David Winnick (Walsall, North): We all want to avoid war, but did my hon. Friend read the leader comment in The Times on Monday last week, which reported that a female broadcaster in Baghdad, who was alleged to have said a few words about Saddam's wife, was arrested, tortured and hanged? Her tongue was cut out from the corpse and sent to her family. Does not that example
show that if war leads to liberation, it will be a tremendous relief to the overwhelming majority of people in Iraq?
Mr. O'Brien: If we have to undertake military action and American and British troops are committed and have to go into Baghdad, I suspect that the Iraqi people will be the first to cheer seeing the back of Saddam Hussein.
The inspectors' role is not to act as detectives but to act as auditors to verify the declaration. They cannot fulfil their mandate without Iraqi co-operation. They are not detectives who are looking for clues or a needle in a haystack the size of Iraq. They are auditors, who audit the Iraqi declaration. Given that it is neither full nor complete—no one seriously disputes that—all the time in the world will not enable the inspectors to do that. Regardless of numbers, the job is impossible. We can give them all the time in the world, but without the complete declaration, the exercise is pointless. Resolution 1441 is explicit about the need for complete co-operation.
Mr. Salmond: The Minister must know that both sets of inspectors are asking for more time. Are the conditions that the Prime Minister outlined on 6 February being fulfilled? He said that the inspectors must see that the process is finished, and that the Security Council must pass a further resolution by majority. He also referred to an "unreasonable veto". Will the Government support force only in those circumstances or have they changed their mind since the Prime Minister made that statement?
Mr. O'Brien: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary dealt with that point in his opening speech.
Mr. Salmond: The Prime Minister clearly said that he would support the use of force under precise conditions: the inspectors must decide that they can do nothing further and a further resolution has to be passed by a majority. He said that force would also be used if the resolution was subject to an "unreasonable veto". Does that remain the Prime Minister's position?
Mr. O'Brien: We have clearly set out our position. I, too, saw the interview and I do not believe that the hon. Gentleman's recollections are correct. Perhaps we can go through that later.
The threat that Saddam poses is clear. His people, his neighbours and his region have lived in fear of him for years. The UN Security Council has passed resolution 1441 and offered him a final opportunity to comply with legally binding obligations. He has not taken that opportunity and he appears to have no intention of doing so. In those circumstances, there is a limit to what the inspectors can achieve. They cannot fulfil their mandate without Iraqi co-operation.
We have proposed a two-part strategy. First, we, Spain and the US tabled a draft resolution on Monday in New York. Secondly, it will not be put to the vote immediately. It is therefore not too late for Saddam Hussein to comply, but he must do so if military action is to be avoided. There is still time for Iraq to make the right choice, but the onus is on Saddam to co-operate on matters of substance.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) said that we cannot trust Saddam Hussein. We need to send Saddam a clear message that he must comply in full with resolution 1441 now—not in 120 days, not in four months and not in one year, but now. That is the real route to peace. Saddam Hussein needs a clear message tonight. If we fail to provide that, we will send the wrong message: that UN resolutions can be ignored. We intend to send the right message: that UN resolutions will be enforced; that international law will be complied with; and that other dictators should not pursue weapons of mass destruction because the international community will intervene.
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 199, Noes 393.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Allan, Richard
Allen, Graham
Austin, John
Bacon, Richard
Baker, Norman
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barrett, John
Battle, John
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, rh A. J.
Bennett, Andrew
Benton, Joe (Bootle)
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Breed, Colin
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Bruce, Malcolm
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnett, John
Burstow, Paul
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Carmichael, Alistair
Caton, Martin
Challen, Colin
Chaytor, David
Chidgey, David
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cotter, Brian
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom (Tooting)
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Dalyell, Tam
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Dawson, Hilton
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Brian H.
Doran, Frank
Doughty, Sue
Drew, David (Stroud)
Edwards, Huw
Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Ewing, Annabelle
Farrelly, Paul
Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul (Newport W)
Foster, Don (Bath)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Galloway, George
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gidley, Sandra
Godsiff, Roger
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Gummer, rh John
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hancock, Mike
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)
Harvey, Nick
Heath, David
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Hinchliffe, David
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Holmes, Paul
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Horam, John (Orpington)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Hume, John (Foyle)
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Eric
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Keetch, Paul
Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)
Kilfoyle, Peter
Kirkwood, Sir Archy
Lamb, Norman
Laws, David (Yeovil)
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leigh, Edward
Lepper, David
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Luke, Iain (Dundee E)
Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)
McCafferty, Chris
McDonnell, John
McGrady, Eddie
McKechin, Ann
McNamara, Kevin
McWalter, Tony
Mahmood, Khalid
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallon, Seamus
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Mole, Chris
Moore, Michael
Morgan, Julie
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Oaten, Mark (Winchester)
Öpik, Lembit
Organ, Diana
Owen, Albert
Page, Richard
Perham, Linda
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Pollard, Kerry
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Pugh, Dr. John
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Rendel, David
Robertson, Angus (Moray)
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Salmond, Alex
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Adrian
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Shipley, Ms Debra
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Steen, Anthony
Stevenson, George
Stinchcombe, Paul
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stunell, Andrew
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Thurso, John
Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Tyrie, Andrew
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Ms Joan
Walter, Robert
Wareing, Robert N.
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Weir, Michael
White, Brian
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Betty (Conwy)
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Willis, Phil
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike (Batley)
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Douglas Hogg and
Mr. Tony Lloyd
NOES
Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Amess, David
Ancram, rh Michael
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Arbuthnot, rh James
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Baldry, Tony
Barron, rh Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, rh Margaret
Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)
Bell, Stuart
Bellingham, Henry
Benn, Hilary
Bercow, John
Blackman, Liz
Blair, rh Tony
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, rh David
Blunt, Crispin
Boateng, rh Paul
Borrow, David
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, rh Gordon (Dunfermline E)
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bryant, Chris
Burnham, Andy
Burns, Simon
Burnside, David
Burt, Alistair
Byers, rh Stephen
Caborn, rh Richard
Cairns, David
Cameron, David
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Gregory (E Lond'y)
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Cash, William
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chope, Christopher
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Collins, Tim
Colman, Tony
Conway, Derek
Cook, rh Robin (Livingston)
Cooper, Yvette
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Corston, Jean
Cran, James (Beverley)
Cranston, hon. Ross
Cruddas, Jon
Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Darling, rh Alistair
David, Wayne
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dismore, Andrew
Djanogly, Jonathan
Dodds, Nigel
Donaldson, Jeffrey M.
Dorrell, rh Stephen
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drown, Ms Julia
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Duncan, Peter (Galloway)
Duncan Smith, rh Iain
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Evans, Nigel
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flight, Howard
Flint, Caroline
Flook, Adrian
Follett, Barbara
Forth, rh Eric
Foster, rh Derek
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Foulkes, rh George
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francois, Mark
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
Gardiner, Barry
Garnier, Edward
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Goodman, Paul
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hague, rh William
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hammond, Philip
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Hawkins, Nick
Hayes, John (S Holland)
Heald, Oliver
Healey, John
Heathcoat-Amory, rh David
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hendry, Charles
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hermon, Lady
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Howard, rh Michael
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hunter, Andrew
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Hutton, rh John
Ingram, rh Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jamieson, David
Jenkin, Bernard
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Kaufman, rh Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Ann (Brentford)
Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
King, Andy (Rugby)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lammy, David
Lansley, Andrew
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Leslie, Christopher
Letwin, rh Oliver
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Lilley, rh Peter
Linton, Martin
Loughton, Tim
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McCartney, rh Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDonald, Calum
MacDougall, John
McFall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McIsaac, Shona
Mackay, rh Andrew
McKenna, Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mandelson, rh Peter
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Martlew, Eric
Maude, rh Francis
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
May, Mrs Theresa
Meacher, rh Michael
Mercer, Patrick
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Alan
Miliband, David
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Moffatt, Laura
Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Moran, Margaret
Morley, Elliot
Morris, rh Estelle
Moss, Malcolm
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)
Norman, Archie
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, James
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Paterson, Owen
Pearson, Ian
Picking, Anne
Pickles, Eric
Pickthall, Colin
Plaskitt, James
Pond, Chris (Gravesham)
Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Portillo, rh Michael
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prescott, rh John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, rh Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Raynsford, rh Nick
Redwood, rh John
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Robinson, Mrs Iris (Strangford)
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rosindell, Andrew
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruane, Chris
Ruffley, David
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Selous, Andrew
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Shepherd, Richard
Sheridan, Jim
Short, rh Clare
Simmonds, Mark
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)
Soames, Nicholas
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh John
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Squire, Rachel
Stanley, rh Sir John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Straw, rh Jack
Streeter, Gary
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Swayne, Desmond
Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Syms, Robert
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Tredinnick, David
Trimble, rh David
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Viggers, Peter
Ward, Claire
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)
Watts, David
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Whittingdale, John
Wicks, Malcolm
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wills, Michael
Wilson, Brian
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woolas, Phil
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Noes:
Jim Fitzpatrick and
Joan Ryan
Question accordingly negatived.
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