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27 Feb 2003 : Column 461—continued
3.47 pm
Mr. McCartney: I congratulate the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) on making the speech that he was unable to make in the previous debate.
I shall not be enticed down the route on which the hon. Gentleman set out, other than to say, in relation to what he described as the golden years, that we have just cleared up the consequences of those golden years, which cost £13 billion in mis-sold pensions, which were sold mainly to individuals who already had a good pension but were persuaded by the Conservatives, by various means, to put it at risk.
On the hon. Gentleman's final point, that is not a technical matter, but a very important issue that has exercised my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and me in relation to representations that I have received since becoming Minister for Pensions. To be frank, until I became Minister I had not realised some of the problems that were associated with this. I have met Conservative Members who have constituency problems in that regard—if the hon. Gentleman has any such, I shall be prepared to meet him. That is why we are hoping that proposals in the Green Paper will meet both the hon. Gentleman's objectives and our own, which, to be honest, are about the same.
The hon. Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts) raised several issues. First, I shall take the opportunity to advise him about his local Pension Service. We are in the process of setting up three surgeries only for him in partnership with Age Concern, two of which are in Market parade and Malmesbury lawns. I can give him further details if he wishes. Doubtless even he will get some support from the Pension Service.
Mr. Boswell: I want to make a constructive suggestion. While the Pension Service gets its act together, it might not be a bad idea if local management wrote to all Members of Parliament to inform them of surgeries' location.
Mr. McCartney: That is a fair point. We are encouraging local managers, and I write to hon. Members as each centre is established. Informing hon. Members is not a problem but a priority. We are doing that as we develop the local Pension Service and put partnership arrangements in place. Further information will be sent to Members of Parliament as we roll out the service. Our job is to keep Members of Parliament and, I stress, their staff involved in our activities. Staff are in the front line and we want to ensure that every member of staff is fully apprised of the service that we are providing and that we forge continuing links.
Mr. Willetts: From the addresses that the Minister mentioned, I suspect that one may be that of an Age
Concern office and the other that of a social services nursing home. Will he clarify whether Pension Service staff—his officials—will give the authoritative advice?
Mr. McCartney: Indeed. Highly trained, highly committed local Pension Service staff, whose raison d'être is to be advocates for the older person and work with groups, will give advice. We are rolling out centres throughout the country; I believe that 700 are already in place. We are developing and building on that.
We are also willing to consider ideas. For example, my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North and Fleetwood (Mrs. Humble) asked whether we could arrange for Pension Service staff to hold advice centres with her. We will partner any individual, organisation or community group. That includes Members' staff who want assistance and advice on pension matters. It is part of the ethos of the Pension Service, especially the local service, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are committed to it. We shall do anything that we can to assist hon. Members.
The hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire tried to entice me again. Conservative Members always try to entice me. I do not know why, but they try to tickle my fancy—politically speaking, of course. He tried to persuade me to give a different view from that of the Government Actuary on the contract rebates. I am not an actuary and we employ Government Actuaries to give us appropriate advice. They do not do that in isolation. The proposed rebates were sent out for consultation and the Government Actuary's Department produced a document. The Actuary presented recommendations after that consultation.
Recent changes in economic conditions have not altered the Actuary's long-term assumption on which the rebates are based. It is reasonable and fair for actuaries to make long-term assumptions. Changes in cycles will occur from time to time, but the system is well proven and the advice that we receive non-partisan. I assure hon. Members that Ministers have not interfered politically in the past, are not doing so now and will not do so. The decisions are non-partisan; they must be taken independently and based on best practice.
The changes in the order involve £11 billion over five years—2002–03 to 2006–07.
Mr. Heald: There is widespread anxiety in the actuarial profession about the matter. What was the balance of opinion in the consultation? Does somebody support the Government Actuary's opinion?
Mr. McCartney: The whole purpose of consulting is to consult other actuaries. One could take a range of issues and receive different actuarial views. It was obviously the balance that the Actuary came to. He will not give advice to the Government that is so much out of touch with the long-term view that he and others in the profession have expressed. From time to time there will be different views. Actuaries' opinions are sought. The thing about the Government Actuary is that, unlike other actuaries who give advice to clients, who can take it or leave it, he consults over the proposed advice that he may wish to give. That is a democratic, accountable process.There is nothing to add to what I have told the hon. Gentleman. He is looking for a fox. It is not there.
The hon. Member for Northavon (Mr. Webb) asked a range of questions about the lack of numbers on contracting out. I hope that I can give him the right information. If not, I apologise in advance. I am told that the data for the financial years up to 2000–01 will be available by the early summer this year, with an update in the autumn relating to 2000–02. [Interruption.] Remarks are being made from a sedentary position. I am being open, frank and honest. The hon. Gentleman asked me a technical question and I gave him the answer. If there is any change, I shall notify him and other hon. Members as soon as I can. I want to make sure that the information available in this context is put in the public domain.
Mr. Webb: I am grateful to the Minister. That is the information that I was asking for, but now that I have heard the answer I am even more worried. Is the right hon. Gentleman not concerned that he will be trying to shape pension policy in this critical consultative stage without knowing how many people are contracting out, whether the number is going up or down and how people are responding behaviourly? The last information the hon. Gentleman gave me in a written answer was for 1995–96. How can he make policy in that void?
Mr. McCartney: It is fine to try to make a crisis that does not exist. We have had to reconstruct the NIRS programmes. Therefore, the whole structure and basis of how information is collated has changed. To suggest that this is the only information that we require to determine our pension policy—in relation to the public sector, the state pension provision or private pension provision, second-tier provision—is nonsense. The hon. Gentleman, who is an academic, knows that what he is saying is nonsense.
We are attempting to give the information and put it in the public domain. I apologise if the hon. Gentleman thought that it should have been made available sooner. There are genuine technical reasons why that was not done. It has fallen to my watch to sort it. I am trying to sort it, so that we all have more up-to-date, more accurate information. I am sure that the hon. Member for Havant will take that comment about more accurate information to his heart and challenge me about it some time in the future.
I will take the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, West (Paul Flynn) as a pre-Budget submission to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and make sure that they are passed to my right hon. Friend.
Mr. Willetts: I am grateful to the Minister, who is trying to respond to the various points that have been raised about pensioners and the effect of the order on them. I return to the assurance given by the right hon. Gentleman's PPS, the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Turner), to me in the radio interview to which I referred earlier. Can he repeat the guarantee that there will be a face-to-face meeting with officials from the Pension Service, if that is what pensioners want?
Mr. McCartney: I have given a written assurance to the Select Committee. If the hon. Gentleman has not
read it, I shall send him a copy. Any pensioner who requires a home visit will receive one. We are doubling the staff in the local service. The whole point of the local service is to have an interface to make sure that pensioners have direct access to the services that we want to provide.I know that the hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr. Mitchell) is working with the hon. Gentleman to privatise the state pension. While he is getting on with that dastardly deed we are getting on with a face-to-face relationship with Britain's pensioners.
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