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4 Mar 2003 : Column 756—continued
Mr. Simon Thomas: I should like to make two points. First, there is a material difference between these amendments and those that I tabled in Committee, where I proposed that those bodies review Ofcom's work. The Minister will note that my hon. Friend the Member for North Tayside (Pete Wishart) is not making such a proposal—the committees would be advisory and would not deal with statutory legislation.
Secondly, how would the Minister react if the Welsh and the Scottish Executives set up their own bodies, as they are perfectly entitled to do, to provide advice on Ofcom's work in Wales and Scotland? That would be—
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. That is getting rather lengthy for an intervention. I think that the Minister has got the point.
Mr. Timms: The matter is entirely for those Executives. However, the House should acknowledge the fact that the Bill specifically addresses those concerns. The hon. Member for North Tayside (Pete Wishart) spoke about the devolved Administrations having a diminished role, but that is not the case at all, and is a mistaken characterisation of the Bill. We have included a specific provision, clause 1, which requires Ofcom to establish and maintain offices in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England. The hon. Gentleman referred to a vague provision; clearly, he has not read clause 1, which includes specific requirements. The content board and the consumer panel will have designated members who can represent the interests of people in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, as set out in clause 11. Ofcom has started to look for people to fill those positions.
My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Anniesland (John Robertson) referred to the fact that we are exploring consultative arrangements to support the national representatives on the content board and the consumer panel, and there will be discussions between officials, devolved Administrations and Ofcom.
Ofcom will also agree memorandums of understanding with the relevant Secretaries of State on issues such as consultation on national appointments; the holding of regular meetings with the devolved Administrations; and the production of an account in Ofcom's annual report of its activities in the nations. The Bill now fully addresses the concerns that the hon. Member for North Tayside and others have expressed in debate.On amendment No. 206, Ofcom is already required under clause 331 to have regard to the different interests of the various parts of the UK in carrying out its duties. The clause ensures that Ofcom will bear those interests in mind throughout its deliberations. The Bill does not specify how those interests may be expressed, but it will be possible for the devolved Administrations, along with others, to make representations in their chosen form and for Ofcom to take them into account. There is no need to include in the Bill the specific provision proposed in amendment No. 206. Of course it is tempting to believe that Ofcom should be expanded to include a person to address each of the concerns specifically. In reality, Ofcom as a whole should address those concerns, and the Bill provides for that.
5.15 pm
Pete Wishart: There seems to be a general misunderstanding about what we are trying to secure through the amendments. We want to improve the relationship between the devolved institutions and the Ofcom board. We are not asking for anything more than that. It is reasonable to suggest that for good governance there should be a proper relationship between the devolved institutions and the Ofcom board, and I do not see why there should be any objection to that.
With regard to the number on the Ofcom board, I do not find the argument of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Anniesland (John Robertson) convincing. Perhaps we should further reduce the number of Scottish MPs—I am sure that that would go some way towards improving the representation of Scotland. It is a ridiculous argument that representation would be improved by making a smaller body that does not take account of the interests of the different nations and regions of the United Kingdom.
To suggest, as the Minister did, that we do not have a diminished role is utter nonsense. We had a place on the ITC board; we had a place on the other national regulatory boards; we do not have a place on the Ofcom board. That represents a diminution of our role and our influence in the new broadcasting regime. The Minister shakes his head, but how can he say—
Mr. Simon Thomas: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. When the Minister summed up his case, he said that the matters in question were not devolved, so why should there be representation for Wales? The hon. Member for North Tayside (Pete Wishart) pointed out that we had such representation. If it was okay pre-devolution for Wales and Scotland to be represented on those bodies, why is it not okay post-devolution?
Pete Wishart: As always, the hon. Gentleman makes a good point. The Minister will have to consider that.
We had a place pre-devolution. Now, somehow, because we have a Parliament and national assemblies, our role is diminished. I do not understand the Minister's argument. All the amendments seek to do is establish a proper relationship between the devolved institutions and the Ofcom board. I am disappointed that the Minister cannot accept that, so unfortunately we shall press the matter to a Division.Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
The House divided: Ayes 47, Noes 415.
AYES
Allan, Richard
Barrett, John
Beith, rh A. J.
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Burnett, John
Burnham, Andy
Burns, Simon
Burnside, David
Burstow, Paul
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Caborn, rh Richard
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Caplin, Ivor
Carmichael, Alistair
Chidgey, David
Cotter, Brian
Cummings, John
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Doughty, Sue
Etherington, Bill
Ewing, Annabelle
Foster, Don (Bath)
Garnier, Edward
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Gidley, Sandra
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)
Harvey, Nick
Heath, David
Hepburn, Stephen
Holmes, Paul
Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)
Kirkwood, Sir Archy
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Laws, David (Yeovil)
Llwyd, Elfyn
McLoughlin, Patrick
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Moore, Michael
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Oaten, Mark (Winchester)
Öpik, Lembit
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Pugh, Dr. John
Quinn, Lawrie
Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Rendel, David
Robertson, Angus (Moray)
Salmond, Alex
Sanders, Adrian
Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Thurso, John
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Viggers, Peter
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Weir, Michael
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Willis, Phil
Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woodward, Shaun
Worthington, Tony
Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)
Tellers for the Ayes:
Pete Wishart and
Mr. Simon Thomas
NOES
Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Amess, David
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Arbuthnot, rh James
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Bacon, Richard
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Barnes, Harry
Baron, John (Billericay)
Barron, rh Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Begg, Miss Anne
Bellingham, Henry
Benn, Hilary
Bennett, Andrew
Benton, Joe (Bootle)
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Blunt, Crispin
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnett, John
Burnham, Andy
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Byers, rh Stephen
Cairns, David
Cameron, David
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Cash, William
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chaytor, David
Chope, Christopher
Clapham, Michael
Clappison, James
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Collins, Tim
Colman, Tony
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cooper, Yvette
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cousins, Jim
Cran, James (Beverley)
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Dalyell, Tam
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davidson, Ian
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Brian H.
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drown, Ms Julia
Duncan, Peter (Galloway)
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Evans, Nigel
Ewing, Annabelle
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Farrelly, Paul
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Foster, rh Derek
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Francois, Mark
Gardiner, Barry
Garnier, Edward
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Gummer, rh John
Hague, rh William
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hammond, Philip
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Hawkins, Nick
Hayes, John (S Holland)
Healey, John
Heathcoat-Amory, rh David
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hendry, Charles
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Hodge, Margaret
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Horam, John (Orpington)
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hunter, Andrew
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, rh Adam
Jack, rh Michael
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jamieson, David
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson, Alan (Hull W)
Johnson, Boris (Henley)
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Kaufman, rh Gerald
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Keen, Ann (Brentford)
Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Kirkwood, Sir Archy
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lammy, David
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leigh, Edward
Leslie, Christopher
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lilley, rh Peter
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Loughton, Tim
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
Luke, Iain (Dundee E)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McCafferty, Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDonald, Calum
McDonnell, John
MacDougall, John
McFall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McIsaac, Shona
Mackay, rh Andrew
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNamara, Kevin
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahmood, Khalid
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Malins, Humfrey
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Maples, John
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Martlew, Eric
Mates, Michael
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
Mercer, Patrick
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Alan
Miliband, David
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Elliot
Morris, rh Estelle
Moss, Malcolm
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris (Gravesham)
Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Portillo, rh Michael
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, rh Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Randall, John
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Raynsford, rh Nick
Redwood, rh John
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rooney, Terry
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruane, Chris
Ruffley, David
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sayeed, Jonathan
Sedgemore, Brian
Selous, Andrew
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Shepherd, Richard
Sheridan, Jim
Shipley, Ms Debra
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Soames, Nicholas
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh John
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stinchcombe, Paul
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Streeter, Gary
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Tredinnick, David
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Tyrie, Andrew
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Walley, Ms Joan
Walter, Robert
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Robert N.
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Whittingdale, John
Wicks, Malcolm
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Wilshire, David
Wilson, Brian
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Noes:
Gillian Merron and
Mr. Fraser Kemp
Question accordingly negatived.
New Clause 20
Duty Relating to Disabled Users
'It shall be the duty of OFCOM to encourage electronic communications network operators and terminal equipment manufacturers to cooperate in order to facilitate access by disabled users to electronic communications services.'.— [Mr. Simon Thomas.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
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