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7 Mar 2003 : Column 1114—continued
Mr. Bryant: I will give way, but I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has been here for much of the debate.
Sir Peter Tapsell: I apologise for that, but I came in especially to listen to the hon. Gentleman's speech. It has been extraordinarily interesting so far, but an absolute travesty of the truth.
I declare an interest: my stockbroking firm advised the National Coal Board's pension fund for many years from the 1950s. One reason why the widows of miners have such relatively good occupational pensions is that that pension fund was excellently run. The Conservative party's achievement over a long time is reflected in the fact that, when I entered politics, very few people had occupational pensions but, by 1997, about 80 per cent. qualified for them. That great social advance is now under enormous threat.
Mr. Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is suggesting that the people of Rhondda are particularly delighted with the Conservative Government's record in mining communities. If he wants to join us on the street stall tomorrow, proclaim himself to be a stockbroker and explain to the people of Rhondda what the Conservative Government did for them through denying miners compensation—
Sir Peter Tapsell: I was talking about pension funds.
Mr. Bryant: Indeed, but the hon. Gentleman suggested that he did such a good job by the miners that
we should be downright grateful. He mentioned travesties. He should be ashamed of himself and, for that matter, of his Government's record in mining communities.My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) and I tabled a reasoned amendment to the motion, although it has not been selected for debate. We did that partly because we were worried about how the Bill would affect the way in which men and women are treated in pension provision. Superficially, the Bill seems attractive, but the arguments are meretricious and all that glitters is not gold. By guaranteeing one annuity rate for men and women, the implication is that we would establish parity between them. The present system sets annuity rates separately for men and women. On the whole, men have a higher rate for the obvious reason that they are likely to die earlier, while women are likely to outlive their husbands and other male contemporaries.
According to annuity director rates of March 2003, a 65-year-old man who purchases an annuity for £100,000, which is rather more than many of my constituents would spend, might receive £603 a month. The comparable figure for a female is £565 a month, a difference of £38. I use those figures for simplicity's sake. They are for level annuities, but I could give other annuity figures because, broadly speaking, the same principle arises. It seems unjust that a women would receive less than a man on a monthly basis, but a man's total payments for his expected lifespan after retirement—about 17 years—would come to £123,012, whereas a woman could expect to receive £135,720 for her life expectancy in retirement of 20 years. That puts her ahead by some £12,500, which makes a significant difference.
Far from the present system militating against women, I contend that the many thousands of women in my constituency who have long outlived their husbands have done better under the present system than they would under that suggested by the hon. and learned Gentleman. If we were to pay on a unisex basis, as the Bill recommends, a man would receive a mere £123,012 and a woman would receive £144,720 if they lived to their life expectancies, but the annuity companies would say that they could not afford that and would cut annuities for men and women. As a result, the men would do considerably worse than the £123,012 and annuity rates would be cut overall.
I asked what the Bill would do for women and for men. The simple answer is that it would militate against the best interests of men and it would not improve the prospects for women. Women would not get higher annuity rates; instead, they would probably receive the same annuity rate that they get at the moment. At the end of the period, they would not have increased their amount of money and the men would probably have lost out. On the basis of justice for men and women, the Bill might seem just and desirable, but it would be wrong.
Mr. Love: Does my hon. Friend agree that the measure may prove to be a disincentive to saving, and as there is already a savings gap of between £20 billion and £30 billion, that would be of concern to the Treasury?
Mr. Bryant: I wholly support what my hon. Friend says. It is important that the Treasury and Labour Members who are concerned about these matters rigorously pursue them and give them due scrutiny.
I started my speech by asking three basic questions. The first was whether the Bill is necessary in the present context. I simply believe that it is not, for several reasons, including not least the fact that the minimum retirement income process it lays out is so woolly and non-specific that it would be counter-productive. Secondly, I asked whether it is the right Bill to be advancing at this stage. I do not believe that it is legally correct, because it would be difficult to make it work with the pension credit, the minimum income guarantee and any of the other changes likely to be made in the next year.
Thirdly, I asked whether the Bill is politically desirable. For me, to be politically desirable, a pensions Bill would have to deliver to the people of Rhondda a choice equal to that of everyone else in the country. As a socialist, I want a system that makes sure that we abolish pensioner poverty rather than simply benefiting the wealthiest in society who have accumulated funds in excess of £150,000. That is why I say that the Bill is politically wholly undesirable.
In addition, I ask whether the Bill is amendable. Despite the fact that many Tory Members are suddenly appearing in the Chamber, there is no Whip on a private Member's Bill. That means that the House must simply ask itself whether the Bill is broadly okay, even it has some imperfections, as the hon. and learned Member for Harborough admitted earlier. I do not think that the Bill is amendable. The fundamental principles on which it is based are wholly inequitable, and it is in the interests of the few and not the many. Hon. Members should not give it a Second Reading because it cannot be amended to make it acceptable to the vast majority of people in this country.
1.32 pm
Dr. Vincent Cable (Twickenham): I am grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for rewarding my four-hour wait by giving me an opportunity to put my views on the record. I congratulate the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) on introducing the Bill, although I suspect that by now he is wishing that he had taken the more cowardly route that some of us took when we drew a high place in the ballot on private Members' Bills and checked out his Bill with the Government Whips.
Perhaps I should also congratulate the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) on his great ingenuity and stamina. Most hon. Members will be gratified that he did not get his hands on a document that I started reading to keep myself sane during his speech: "Reinventing Annuities", by the Staple Inn Actuarial Society. [Interruption.] Oh, the hon. Gentleman does have it, does he? It contains a world history of annuities, and I was having nightmares about him starting to read it to us.
That document equipped me with one or two party political points. I was not aware, until I read it, that apart from Lloyd George's contribution on pensions, William Ewart Gladstone, the great Liberal Prime Minister, took the first step to introduce state annuities in 1864; however, the Tories repealed the measure in 1928. The document also reminds us that although today we are talking about compulsory annuities, for a
long period in British history not only were annuities not compulsory; they were illegal because of the attitude of the Church. Of course, we now have an historical echo of that in the attitude of the Brethren.Of course, the history of annuities goes back much further. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman could have reminded us that a similar debate reverberated around the Roman Senate, where annuities policy was a major issue as a result of changes introduced in 40 BC, so we have a long lineage of argument on the subject.
I support the Bill, and I am sure that the Conservative Chief Whip will be gratified to know that my troops are massing outside the Chamber ready to vote for its Second Reading.
Dr. Cable: Indeed. In fact, I think that there is only one, but the spirit is there none the less.
I want to emphasise the fact that there is a serious problem. There has been an attempt to caricature the Bill as a measure that is only of interest to the rich. However, there are about 4 million private pensioners and about 1.4 million occupational pensioners on money purchase schemes, many of whom are affected by the adverse trend in annuities. Not all of them would necessarily benefit from the Bill, but the number of beneficiaries would be millions rather than tens of thousands, so it is not simply a Bill for the rich.
First, I should stress that although the debate has been party political, there has been a good deal of convergence. The hon. Member for Hendon rightly pointed out that the advocates of reform have effectively abandoned the moral high ground, as they no longer argue for the abolition of compulsion, which is written into the Bill. Indeed, it would start at 65 instead of 75. The Bill therefore goes a long way in trying to meet the Government's concern. The Conservative spokesman pointed out that the Government have gone quite a long way towards accepting the need for annuities reform. I do not know whether the Financial Secretary will have a chance to confirm that, but the Library briefing says of her proposal for income draw-down:
- "It will be possible for individuals not to purchase an annuity when they reach 75".
The problem associated with annuities is serious and is getting worse. The hon. and learned Member for Harborough spoke about the annuities calculation, and gave the example of the £100,000 pension pot which produced a £10,000 annuity in 1990. By the late 1990s, when we first started to debate the issue in the House, its value had gone down to £5,500. Now it is worth £4,500, so the position is deteriorating. The counter-argument is that people who retired in 1990 did not have such a large pension pot because they did not have the opportunity to benefit from the stock market appreciation of the 1990s. We are therefore not comparing like with like. None the less, a generation of pensioners have been ravaged by a combination of the stock market collapse of recent years and low annuity rates, and are now seriously disadvantaged.
Secondly, it is not simply the nominal rates that have fallen—there is also a problem with the real annuity rates. In previous debates, we heard the complex reasons why there is a low return on annuities. The combination of increased demand for annuities and reduced supply is to blame. In other words, the Government are not borrowing as much because of their fiscal policy. The problem will get worse, because more annuities are coming on to the market. There is currently about £2 billion-worth of annuities, which will probably rise to about £12 billion-worth by 2005. It is predicted to go on to rise to £35 billion-worth. With the collapse of defined benefits schemes and the rise of defined contributions schemes, the annuities market will grow and drive down real annuities even further, adding to the problems that have been described.
Thirdly, on the deteriorating position, for the first time it is becoming clear that there is a genuine risk associated with annuities. Until recently, annuities were seen as a safe investment. There are risks associated with inflation, but we know from the Equitable Life experience that annuities can be savagely cut. Although they are underpinned by Government securities they depend on the viability of financial institutions. If they are dodgy like Equitable—many others are drifting towards insolvency—people's annuities can be substantially capped. There is therefore a risk associated with annuities, as well as poor returns.
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