| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
24 Mar 2003 : Column 89—continued
Jim Knight: I went out with my local police between 1 am and 3 am on a Saturday morning 10 days ago, to witness the peak at 2 am as people were chucked out of nightclubs and someone had chucked up on the pavement. I witnessed the disorder that results from that peak, but the police I was with welcomed the possibility of staggered closing times, so that they could keep on top of the situation without trying to have a peak in their own resources between 2 am and 3 am, when some officers may be taking prisoners to custody suites and so on, leaving the town centre vulnerable.
John Cryer: The police I was with said just the opposite, so there we are.
It is worth looking at a report carried out by the Cranfield school of management, called "Licensing Law Liberalisation: The Scottish Experience", which draws on similar experiences from a few years ago in Scotland, where deregulation led, in effect, to 24-hour licensing. The report said:
- "The consequence of the liberalisation in Edinburgh was, for example, that the policing of the city became more, not less, difficult, as the lack of a uniform closing time resulted in numbers of people wandering homewards through the city centre streets throughout the night. The random incidents that occurred in consequence meant that police resources became over stretched, regularly having to be diverted from the dedicated 'high visibility' patrolling . . . intended to maintain public order."
When the Bill was published originally, the Department issued a press release saying that it would lead to a more civilised and responsible culture and that it would be a key plank in the Government's drive to cut crime. Those who have drafted the Bill, for entirely understandable reasons, would like certain elements of the cultures in, for example, France, Italy or other European countries to be imported into Britain. The problem is that we are not starting from a point over there; we are starting from where we are. This country's culture is very much set around timed drinking, and getting away from that will be immensely difficult.
Mr. Hopkins: I do not know whether my hon. Friend is aware that alcohol consumption in those Mediterranean countries, which we romanticise, is still considerably higher than in Britain.
John Cryer: Yes, there is some truth in that.
It is true that the premises licence will incorporate operating conditions limited to considerations such as crime and order, public safety and nuisance factors and would be set locally on the basis of a balance of the operator's requirements and the views of residents, police and fire authorities. However, there is real
concern that the powers in the Bill could be insufficient when dealing with a legal onslaught from the big breweries, which will go hell for leather to get the licences that they want.Many councillors will be told by council officers—I can see it happening— "Well, you could reject this licence application, but it will go to a higher court, which may well overturn the decision and you could face personal surcharging by the court." Although I have never been a councillor, I have dealt with local authorities for many years and I have seen that happen. When it does, councillors run scared and accept licence applications, rather than face real financial difficulties.
Mr. Mark Field: I entirely endorse what the hon. Gentleman says about the pressures that can be put on local councils, particularly by large alcohol and entertainment industry combines. However, what does he think about the earlier point about fees? Does he not feel that one of the safeguards would be to lift the cap on fees, not with the fear that local authorities will make money, but to ensure that they have the very best advice against the high-profile legal advice on which many large firms in the alcohol and entertainment industry will be able to rely?
John Cryer: The answer would be to give local authorities proper, concrete powers to stand up to the big breweries because we have seen such things in the past.
I wish to draw on the sixth report from the Select Committee on the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, which said:
- "The Licensing Bill fails to make any improvement to residents' right to object. Indeed, their opportunities for input are actually reduced under the draft Guidance in two respects. Only residents living 'in the vicinity' will be able to object, and residents will not be allowed to make a repeat objection at the review of the licence."
- "We recommend that licensing authorities are given powers to accept residents' sworn evidence of nuisance, and we further recommend that, (as in certain European cities) licensing authorities are given powers to set an overall terminal hour".
The report also includes a recommendation on upper capacity limits, which also makes a lot of sense:
- "all local authorities are required within their licensing strategies to define upper capacity limits in terms of the number of people with which particular areas, identified by their economic role within the district can reasonably cope at given times of day. Overall capacity could be identified in relation to the fire regulation standards for individual premises".
I want to make two other points that are not directly in the Bill but have been discussed. The Government have examined the possibility of introducing special
payments for nightclubs to cope with the extra policing demanded by the increase in such premises. My noble Friend Lord Harris of Haringey made such a suggestion in the other place. Again, it seems eminently sensible that nightclubs should have to pay a special premium to fund extra officers in their area. That has happened in Manchester where, as I understand from reports that I have read, such an experiment has been very successful. Extra officers in Manchester have covered the particular areas where there has been an explosion in the number of licensed premises and nightclubs in particular. It has also been suggested that a power should exist to take away licences from troublesome nightclubs, which could be included in the Bill. The first recommendation that I mentioned is very much a Home Office measure. Taking away licences temporarily from nightclubs where there has been a particular cause of disorder or even crime, however, seems sensible, and it could be contained in the guidance attached to the Bill. That could be done in Committee.In my constituency, there is a pub called The Good Intent, which has been there for a long time. During the war, when RAF Hornchurch existed—it closed in the 1960s—it was an RAF pub, and it has a rich history. An application has been made, however, for an extended hours licence. There are fears among local residents, as the pub is in a residential area—that was not the case many years ago, but there has been a great deal of house building in the borough—that the extended hours licence is intended to turn it into a night club. That is meeting with objections. I have written objecting to it, as have many residents, and something of a local campaign is going on. My fear is that were the Bill implemented in its present form, an application such as the one being made by the owners of The Good Intent could be successful more easily, and people living in what is clearly a residential area could suddenly find that there is a night club virtually on their door step.
There are some things in the Bill that are laudable: for example, the attempt to clear up the plethora of regulations and complexities that go back many hundreds of years. There should be an attempt to make the position much clearer, but I am worried that if the Bill is implemented in its present form, all it will do is hand greater powers to the big breweries, which will lead to greater problems, especially for law and order.
7.52 pm
Hywel Williams (Caernarfon): Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in this significant debate. At the outset, I must say that, like the Minister, I come from a country where, as the old song goes,
- "if you want a drink on Sunday, You will have to wait till Monday".
With all the certainty and with the gleam in the eye of a new Member, may I say that we often do not pay enough attention to the historical context of what we are doing? It would be remiss of me not to note that with this Bill we see
the passing of the Welsh Sunday opening polls, which led to the closing of pubs in various areas in Wales on Sunday. My area of Dwyfor was one of the last where the pubs all closed on Sunday and many people went over the Cob to Porthmadog for a drink in the green pastures of Meirionnydd. I notice that none of the Liberal Democrat Members have mentioned that the Welsh polls were one of the triumphs of the last Liberal Government and of Welsh liberalism in the last century, along with the disestablishment of the Church in Wales. Now that the polls are disappearing perhaps their progenitors will do so too, in the forthcoming election.I have no doubt, however, that the measures in the Bill will be very popular. However, I must sound a caution to the Minister. I stood in the Welsh Assembly election in 1999 and one of my opponents represented the Socialist Alliance. Clearly, as he was a member of the Socialist Alliance, he was not a member of the Labour party. One of the Socialist Alliance's leaflets in Welsh called for more tai cyhoeddus, which is public sector housing. It translated public sector housing wrongly, however, as public houses, so it called for more public houses. Despite that and the probable popularity of the Bill, I must warn the Minister that the candidate from the Socialist Alliance came last in the election. That is a warning to us all.
On some more serious points, I welcome the fact that the Government have signalled their intention to exempt the provision of entertainment in places of religious worship from the requirements to obtain a licence. Musical performances have a central place in Welsh social life and are a normal part of the life of our communities, whether in concerts or in various types of local eisteddfodau. Those are essentially non-commercial events: certainly, if there are any profits, they are not the main object, and they usually go to charity. In many rural communities in Wales, the only suitable venues for such performances would be the chapel or the church. People in Wales are therefore very glad that the requirement for such places to obtain a licence has been withdrawn. The other type of venue often used in Wales is the village hall. I note that the Government have already said that licences for those premises will be free of charge. That still leaves the perceived burden of application for the organisers: the application might be straightforward but organisers may not see it that way.
The provision of alcoholic drinks is not usually a feature of such events in community halls—not in Wales at least—so the provision of one licence on the back of the other does not apply in most cases. Indeed, we do not have a bar on the field of the national eisteddfod, which is the biggest cultural event of its kind in Europe with between 160,000 and 200,000 people coming for the week—not yet at least, although I presume that there will be licensing conditions. If the eisteddfod were to decide to have a bar, the point made by the hon. Member for Reading, East (Jane Griffiths) would be pertinent, in that the eisteddfod is a peripatetic festival, and will therefore have to submit applications to various licensing authorities as the Bill comes into force.
Music performed in Wales is often amateur in the proper sense: it is performed to a high standard by music lovers who are not normally employed as professional musicians. Those people do not have access to the management resources or even the hard cash that
orchestras, pop groups and opera companies have. That is particularly so in respect of vocal music performed in Welsh. That is why the fear of the burden of applying for a licence is particularly strong. We have much amateur choral and classical vocal music in Wales performed in Welsh. Indeed, one of my constituents, Bryn Terfel, who now sings in the great opera houses of the world, started out as a schoolboy singing in local concerts and local eisteddfods. There is a fear that those festivals would be affected by the proposals in the Bill.We also have a very active folk music scene in Wales, and many young pop and rock groups. Much of that music is not performed in pubs but in village and community halls and other less formal venues. Some of those groups have gone on to be very successful and even world famous, but they started out playing in local gigs, and it is feared that those will be curtailed. Well-resourced and famous groups that apply have management and money: it is no problem for, say, the Super Furry Animals, who started out singing in Welsh in small local venues. That is not the case, however, for the popular vocal combo known as the Cacen Wy Experience, and Monswn, who are essentially amateurs trying to get on. As I said, the Super Furries started singing in Welsh in small venues for not a lot of money, although that is not the case now. However, small local rock groups in Wales are concerned that the burden of application will be heavier for the organisers of amateur and community events in Wales than for commercial profit-making performances, which will have an effect on informal performances as well as younger and Welsh-language performers.
Turning briefly to public order issues arising from extending opening hours, we have problems in Wales as elsewhere arising from unruly and sometimes violent behaviour, often fuelled by drink. Regardless of the value to the tourist industry of more relaxed opening hours, staggered closing hours will help to reduce the number of intoxicated people spilling onto the streets from licensed premises and the public order difficulties that then arise. However, there is a more profound effect that we should seek—a changed public attitude to drink and to drunkenness—and the Bill may be very useful in that respect. We should follow the example of European countries where moderation in the rate of consumption is the norm, not the exception. Many hon. Members will agree that alcohol abuse far outweighs other forms of substance abuse both in importance and in the severity of its consequences. We need to harness education and the mass media to encourage young people in particular to change their attitudes. As I have said, the Bill will be useful in achieving that.
There is also a particular responsibility on broadcasters. Television executives are all too happy to put on fly-on-the-wall programmes in which they take young people away to exotic destinations with money in their pockets, then film the inevitable results. At the same time, they are happy to film disturbances in towns and cities throughout Wales and the UK, and to condemn the very behaviour that their colleagues encourage. Broadcasters have a responsibility to put things in proportion and to show the social and medical consequences of alcohol abuse, as well as the misery of crime and violence that so often come in its wake. Their productions must be realistic and should not single out particular groups or communities either because they
are conveniently located, which has certainly happened in television coverage of problems arising from alcohol abuse in Wales, or because they provide a ready source of fluent participants.In so far as the Bill takes some of the harsh mystique out of alcohol consumption and makes it a more normalised activity, thereby reducing consumption and encouraging more reasonable social norms around consumption, it is very much to be welcomed. Indeed, many hon. Members have said that they look forward to detailed discussion in Committee, and so do I.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |