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24 Mar 2003 : Column 111—continued
9.15 pm
Paddy Tipping (Sherwood): I am pleased to support the Bill on its Second Reading; it has been long overdue and long in its gestation. My own research suggests that the licensing laws go back to the 15th century and evolved through the Sunday observance laws. The hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey) mentioned the first world war, and it is true that the licensing regimes were changed as a result of what we would now call exuberant and antisocial behaviour by Carlisle munitions workers.
The Bill deals with matters that are not only archaic, but complex. I brought up two children who came to the pub with me, and I must confess that I never
understood—I do not think that anybody really understands—the arcane and complex laws affecting children in pubs, which need to be reformed.A good deal of discussion has gone on in the industry, and the White Paper, "Time for Reform", brought consensus to the industry. It is sad that we did not have an opportunity for pre-legislative scrutiny, because one of the issues that emerged tonight and in the other place is that of live music and entertainment, on which there has been no real prior discussion. I agree with the Minister that there are a lot of myths around. In the course of the debate, we talked about Scottish dancing, wassailing, morris dancers and, perhaps most importantly, a private function held for the Children's Society in a private house where people are to be charged and there is the possibility of licensing. My hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Claire Ward) asked whether licences are needed for village halls. If we are not clear about what will and will not be caught, it is bad legislation.
The major part of my contribution concerns alcohol regulation. The White Paper made it clear that what was sought was a liberal, deregulatory, simple and flexible licensing regime. The White Paper fell within those parameters, but the Bill does not entirely do so. A good deal of the discussion has focused on urban centres. The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) rightly drew attention to the genuine problems that exist in major urban centres, but most of our pubs are community pubs—local pubs—and the focus on problems in urban areas has led us to neglect what might happen to them. I do not think that the Bill will have the effect that other people argue for. I suspect that in locals and community pubs there will be, just at weekends, a slight extension—perhaps until midnight—of the licensing laws. We should welcome and celebrate that and recognise that in a changing environment people's social lives and attitudes change.
The Bill is backed by what is called a "rough early draft" of the guidelines. The White Paper was about simplicity, but the rough early draft runs to 100-plus pages. Those of us who argued for liberal, simpler legislation will be concerned about the sheer volume of the rough early draft.
What will be the status of the guidelines? Earlier this afternoon, the Secretary of State called them statutory guidelines. I welcome the idea that local authorities should be allowed flexibility. Local needs should be decided by local people. However, we have to be certain about the nature of the guidelines. Are they prescriptive? Are they a set of policies for Government? Or are they simply indicative and informal—allowing local authorities to make the appropriate judgment? Getting the balance of the guidelines right will be extremely important. That will be an issue for discussion in Committee.
Fees should also be considered. Indicative figures for fees have been given and they are not as immense as many had said they would be. I do not share the concerns that pubs in the west of England will close because of the new onerous regime under which they will be placed. The procedure and the operating schedule that will have to be drawn up will be a straightforward way of making progress. We have to be more precise
about costs and about whether the fees from these activities will meet the costs and needs of local authorities. We are asking our local authorities to take on new functions. They ought to be properly resourced to do that; and they ought to be resourced by the applicant rather than by the council tax payer. It will be important to get that right and to get the timetable right. I hope that this new legislation will be in place by autumn 2004.I want to make two specific points. Earlier, I asked the Secretary of State directly about the national register of personal licences. It must be right to collect data nationally—the industry and the other place support that view. We will have to work on the detail, but the principle is right. I was delighted with what the Secretary of State said today. During our discussions, we will have to return to the issue of designated premises supervisors. What is currently envisaged by the Bill is not simple. It is not deregulatory and it is certainly not liberal. I ask the Minister to keep his mind open on that point.
I have long taken an interest in licensing regulation and legislation. I am delighted that time is finally being called on old, anarchistic, anarchic and complex legislation. [Hon. Members: "Anarchistic?"] It can be anarchistic. Those of us who have been there will know—as my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Dr. Gibson) knows—how we would storm out into the night, as soon as the pub closed, to bring forward social and revolutionary change. We have all been there, but we are all modernisers now. [Hon. Members: "Speak for yourself!"] There are some old lags left in this place. However, we do need to modernise our licensing legislation and we are on course to do so. We have made a good start. Concessions have been made. The Government have been listening—but I suspect that, during our consideration of this Bill, further changes will be necessary.
9.23 pm
Mr. Bob Blizzard (Waveney): There are many good things in this Bill—they are too numerous to mention—but I want to speak about the Bill as it relates to the licensing of entertainment and, in particular, live music. I am a strong supporter of live music—not only in large concert halls but in small venues. As other hon. Members have noted, such venues help young musicians to develop. They have to perform live in front of a real audience to get any better.
Live music is also essential to allow minority interests not only to survive but to thrive and one day, we hope, become less of a minority interest. Music that is broadcast is increasingly limited to mainstream music. The very nature of the broadcasting industry means that it squeezes out minority interests or, at best, pushes them further to the fringes. When I go into record shops, I increasingly find only mainstream top-40 music. Unless one goes to a specialist store in a large city, it is hard to find anything of a minority interest. I worry, therefore, that the public will be denied access to music beyond that mass, mainstream taste, unless we do everything we can to allow and encourage live music outlets to thrive and to recognise that the outlets for minority tastes will be small by their very nature.
My passion is jazz. It is hard to find jazz on radio and television. A lot of people like jazz when they hear it; but, all too often, they do not hear it at all, or they think
it is just Kenny Ball and Acker Bilk and they might like or dislike them. When I take people to places where jazz is played, they really do like it. Small, live venues are a serious issue if we are to avoid that monoculture of mass entertainment, and I have looked at the Bill to find out what it will mean for those small premises that lay on live music.I want nothing to make life more difficult for jazz or other so-called minority tastes, so I should like the Minister to consider some concerns. I am very pleased with the idea behind the Lords amendment that grants exemption to live music at small events and premises up to 11.30 pm, as it is an attempt to deal with the issue. If I understand why my hon. Friend cannot support that measure, I hope that he will find an alternative way forward that satisfies the concerns of those small premises. I hope not only that he will meet the Musicians Union, but that he will be willing to receive a delegation from the all-party jazz appreciation group in the House to work through some of those issues.
I accept that, in theory, the process to obtain a new entertainment licence will be simpler, but it will mean that, as we have heard, more than 100,000 premises that currently operate, mostly without problem, will become caught in the net of local authority regulation, and that worries some of the people who run them. They are worried about being caught in the local authority net because they have seen what that means in other spheres. They are worried that that will lead to more red tape, not less.
People are worried not about ticking the box on the application form, but about what could happen afterwards. They look at some local authority licensing panels and see very elderly people with views that are probably conducive to allowing not more entertainment, but less. As a local authority leader, I tried to promote tourism in my area, but the licensing panel, which did not want to allow very much to happen at all, regularly thwarted me. Okay, applicants can appeal, but the cost of the appeals process is rather daunting for small operators.
The White Paper said that local authorities must recoup all the administrative costs through fees, yet I am told that the Department for Culture Media and Sport regulatory impact assessment mentions fees of about £150 to £500, followed by £50 to £150 a year. Local authorities tell me that those fees would be insufficient and that they will have insufficient income to do their jobs properly; or those with small venues worry that the fees will have to be higher or that local authorities will find a way to increase them. So the fees could be more of a burden than they appear at the moment, but those with small premises are worried about bureaucratic local authority processes.
The proposal on fire safety in the draft regulatory reform order is also an issue. At the moment, some people have their premises inspected by the local authority, and they believe that they will now need to have their own fire risk assessment carried out, with the cost of employing independent consultants. Although the licence might be cheaper, the cost of obtaining it may be a problem, given those independent consultants' fees.
The transitional arrangements are another concern. Again, the Bill proposes that local authorities will have to deal with applications to vary the premises licence
within two months during the transitional period. It is anticipated that, in many areas, a flood of people might want to vary their licences or apply for new ones. Will local authorities be able to deal with all those people within two months? People will be deemed to be rejected unless they are approved, and the concern is that people could wait six or nine months, or more, to get an approval, so I hope that my hon. Friend will consider that.Finally, one more reason why we need to consider what we can do to ensure that the situation is better rather than worse for small premises is that, as we know, the Bill exempts wide-screen television music and juke box music, which can attract hundreds of people making a lot of noise. Those premises that put on one jazz pianist at the back of the bar feel that there is something not quite right if 100 people can watch football, listen to MTV, dance on the bar, jump around and make a lot of noise; they feel that live music is being discriminated against. It is not intended to be that way, but we do need to examine the issue again. "Keep Music Live" was a slogan a few years ago. I believed in that, and I still do. We must make sure that we encourage live music at its roots, promote minority interests and increase cultural diversity. If the Bill can do that, it will be a very good one.
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