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24 Mar 2003 : Column 119—continued
The Minister for Tourism, Film and Broadcasting (Dr. Kim Howells): May I welcome very much the statement of the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss) that his party will not oppose the Bill tonight?
This has been a valuable debate in which I counted 21 contributions, many of which were of very high quality. For example, it was instructive to have the benefit of the long experience in the matters under discussion of hon. Members such as my hon. Friends the Members for North Durham (Mr. Jones) and for Selby (Mr. Grogan).
I believe that the Bill will bring real change. It represents the first fundamental reform of licensing law for 40 years and it will introduce modern laws to reflect the many changes that have occurred in society. Above all, the Bill represents balance. As well as cutting unnecessary regulation and improving flexibility and choice, it offers strong protections for consumers, local people and children.
It would be great if I could spend a good deal of the short time left discussing various speakers' contributions, and I apologise if I fail to deal in full with all the points raised. I want to speak briefly about the problem that has generated most interest. Various hon. Members have used different terms to describe it, but it is cumulative effect.
Mr. Frank Dobson (Holborn and St. Pancras): Having harassed my hon. Friend and his predecessor for the past three years, I feel that his day would be incomplete if I did not make an additional point. Will he consider further amending the Bill to ensure that undertakings that existing licence holders have given in the past to protect residents' interests continue to apply? I understand that they will disappear under the Bill. If that happens, a great deal of existing protection for residents will be swept away. I am sure that that was never the Government's intention.
Dr. Howells: We can examine that in the guidance but undertakings are different from conditions and they do not have legal force unless they become conditions in existing licences. However, licensing authorities may consider them when licences are being renewed. If the undertakings have been broken, that could lead to refusal to renew licences. I hope that the industry will consider that carefully.
I understand the need for local authorities to take into account the possible effect of the concentration of licensed premises in a specific area on crime, disorder and public nuisance. The hon. Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale), my hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Claire Ward) and the hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey) and many others raised that issue. The Government share their objective of making our town centres and high streets safe and enjoyable places while clamping down on the disorder and antisocial behaviour that can become a blight for ordinary residents.
As the debate has made clear, some provisions, notably the abolition of permitted hours, should lead to a reduction in the disorder that current law perversely drives. To that end, we have reconsidered our policy on cumulative effect. We have tackled the matter through proposed legislative changes and the statutory guidance that will be issued under the Bill. We have made it clear in the draft guidance that licensing authorities can take saturation or cumulative effect into account. For example, they can make clear in their statements of licensing policy, which will be subject to consultation, that a specific area could cope with normal premises of a particular type and that there would be a general presumption against granting any more licences for such premises. Of course, each case must be decided on its merits.
Many hon. Members made important points. For example, my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham said that the problem is often not the existence of too many licensed premises but that of one sort of licensed premises. When I went on the night shift with police in Manchester, they described such premises as vertical drinking establishments. There is a genuine problem with them. Young people between 18 and 30 often constitute the easiest targets—30 appears very young to someone of my age. When they drink throughout the evening, they present an intimidating prospect to anybody who might visit the area to go to a restaurant or hear some music. The police told me in no uncertain terms that a concentration of vertical drinking establishments rather than a mix of places causes problems. We must bear that in mind.
We have added the local planning authority to the list of responsible authorities that can make representations about an application for a premises licence or club premises certificate. This will give an additional voice on the kind of issues that arise as a result of saturation. We should not lose sight of the fact that one result of the amendment is that, in the vast majority of cases, at least two wings of the local authority will be empowered to make representations to the licensing committee: the environmental health authority, which is already a responsible authority under the Bill, and the local planning authority. Both those bodies will usually be drawn from the same local authority as the licensing authority.
Dr. Howells: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will not give way. There have been so many contributions already.
The Bill also contains a number of measures designed to protect local residents. Residents will have a stronger voice than ever before in licensing decisions, and the Bill will establish clear licensing objectives on crime, disorder and public nuisance, although, as a result of amendments to the Bill, that objective has been much limited in scope and is now framed in terms of "public amenity", which is something different. That is something that we can discuss in Committee, however.
Dr. Desmond Turner (Brighton, Kemptown): Will my hon. Friend give way?
Dr. Howells: No, if my hon. Friend will permit me, I must make progress.
Residents, police, environmental health officers and others will be enabled to call for a review of licences. Police powers will be introduced to close, on the spot, premises that are a source of disorder or noise nuisance, and to confiscate alcohol in sealed containers. The introduction of flexible hours is also intended to widen local consumer choice and reduce the density of drinkers in existing centres. However, seeking to influence the levels of crime and antisocial behaviour by limiting the numbers of licensed premises in a particular area is just not practical, for a number of reasons that have been recognised by many hon. Members tonight.
Providing powers to refuse new licences on the grounds of saturation would provide an undesirable skew in favour of older, established premises, some of which might themselves be the focus of disorder. It would also run the risk of perpetuating the status quo. Some areas would end up keeping hold of the same old stock—the same old dreary drinking dens—with the same old opening hours and the same old problems. That would do no good whatever in the towns and town centres that want to renew themselves. That is an important consideration. There is no body of evidence to suggest that reducing the number of licensed premises in an area would have the desired effect.
We must not forget the contribution that a vibrant late-night environment makes to the economy of an area, and to the country at large. The hospitality, leisure and entertainment industries employ between 2 million and 3 million people, of whom about 1 million are employed in alcohol-licensed premises. That point was made by the hon. Gentleman with the longest constituency name in the country, which I have forgotten. Caithness, Sutherland—
Dr. Howells: We cannot extol the virtues of tourism while seeking to limit what is possible. We often find absurd situations in that regard. For example, if someone goes to the theatre or the cinema, they often have to be able to sprint faster than Linford Christie to get a bottle of wine with their meal at the end of the evening. That is completely absurd, but the Bill will change that.
Mr. Andrew Turner: Will the Minister give way?
Dr. Howells: If the hon. Gentleman will permit me, I will not.
As many as one in five new jobs created in recent years has been in the hospitality sector, and the tourism sector employs 10 per cent. of the country's work force. Indeed, that appears to be one of the reasons that some of the proponents of saturation encouraged the development of licensed premises in their areas in the first place. Allowing the kind of filleting of licensed premises that we seem to be talking about would take those jobs away from the local and wider economy without bringing the benefits that we seek. Experience from abroad, in cities such as Barcelona, Madrid and Rome, suggests that a high density—but with a good mix—of licensed premises might actually have a positive
effect on a city, so long as the customer base is sufficiently diverse and the licensing regime does not encourage unpleasant behaviour.The problems of crime, disorder and antisocial behaviour were raised by a large number of hon. Members. The Bill contains a number of specific provisions to help to combat those problems, such as expanding the existing court powers, on application by the police, to close all licensed premises in a specified geographical area for up to 24 hours where disorder is occurring or is anticipated. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-West (Mr. Best)—I am not sure whether he is back in the Chamber—told us about a terrible incident in Leeds that could have been tackled by those powers.
At present, the powers apply to premises selling alcohol, but they are being expanded to include, for example, all entertainment venues, theatres, cinemas, night cafes and takeaway outlets operating late at night. We are also expanding the police powers that we introduced in December 2001 to close down disorderly and excessively noisy pubs, nightclubs, restaurants and hotels instantly for up to 24 hours. Also, there is the possibility of extending the closure for a further 24 hours, which will be a powerful weapon in the police arsenal.
Those powers will apply to all entertainment premises under the Bill, and abolishing the fixed and artificially early closing time, which provokes binge drinking and results in large numbers of young men hitting the streets simultaneously, thereby causing the police enormous difficulties, will also be tackled. The peaks of disorder immediately after the fixed closing times of 11 pm, 2 am and, as the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field) told us, 3 am in the west end of London should be substantially reduced by a more gradual and orderly dispersal of customers.
I am glad that my hon. Friends raised the issue of special promotions and happy hours. I heard about an example in Manchester from the police: if Manchester United win, certain pubs allow people to pay £10 at the door and they drink as much as they want all night.
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