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26 Mar 2003 : Column 381—continued
Jane Kennedy: It will of course depend on the make-up of Belfast city council and the political demography at the time. Taking west Belfast as an example, it is likely that there will be representatives of the SDLP and of Sinn Fein—if Sinn Fein participates—and that representatives of other parties will have to come in through other means. That is what we are building in through the roles of the chair and vice-chair. There will be a requirement on Belfast city council to ensure that that political mix is available as the sub-groups are established.
Mr. Trimble indicated dissent.
Jane Kennedy: Well, that is my understanding of how the new arrangements will work.
The rules for disqualification and for the removal of members from office remain exactly the same as those that apply to membership of DPPs. The same is true of the provisions relating to allowances, indemnities, insurance against accidents and so on.
Lembit Öpik: I am not sure if this is the right time to ask the Minister this, but will she, now or when she reaches the appropriate moment, give me an assurance—grateful as we are that the Secretary of State accepted the benefits of a debate on the Floor of the House and in another place—that the Government will offer the same commitment in this case? They were willing to accept our suggestion in relation to the previous debate, and exactly the same arguments apply here.
Jane Kennedy: I am happy to give the assurance that the same arrangements will apply—the debate will take place on the Floor of the House—because the same commencement provision applies. I hope that that helps the hon. Gentleman.
The arrangements relating to the procedure of sub-group meetings closely reflect the provisions for district policing partnerships. The only difference is that the Belfast DPP is given the power to give directions to a sub-group about the regulation of its procedure.
The arrangements for constituting committees are similar to the arrangements that apply to DPPs. A sub-group may set up a committee of its own volition or it may be required to do so by the Belfast DPP. Earlier, I used the example of car crime. The Belfast DPP may wish to examine a cross-cutting issue such as car crime that affects more than one policing district. In that case, the DPP would ask the sub-group to establish a committee to deal with it. The Belfast DPP would need to approve the constitution of any committee set up by the sub-group of its own volition. It would need to approve its membership, the functions to be delegated to it and any directions that the sub-group might choose to give to the committee as to the way in which it carries out its functions.
As the sub-groups will carry out a number of independent functions, we believe that it is appropriate for each one to be designated in its own right for the purposes of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the Commissioner for Complaints (Northern Ireland) Order 1996. Hon. Members will note that the latter designation automatically brings sub-groups in their own right within the scope of the statutory equality duties set out in section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998.
The final part of the new schedule deals with transitional arrangements. We believed that it was right to keep disruption to a minimum. I pay tribute to those who came forward to serve on the Belfast DPP. More than 200 people applied in Belfast alone. We propose that, if it believes it necessary in order to create a place for the sub-group chairmen on the main DPP, the council should be able to move one or more political members of the DPP to serve instead on one or more sub-groups.
No equivalent provision is made for independent members because we believe that it would be inappropriate to alter the appointment of members of
the public who have applied for appointment to the DPP. However, there is provision to allow the board to consider as potential members of sub-groups individuals who have already been appointed by independent membership of the Belfast DPP. That would obviate the need for those individuals to go through the full application process a second time if, in addition to or instead of their membership of the Belfast DPP, they wanted to serve on a sub-group. Hon. Members will forgive me for going into some detail, but I felt it necessary because the House has not previously had the opportunity to consider these issues closely.Before I conclude I want to draw Members' attention to two notable changes to the text as compared with the original that was published for consideration in November. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has explained in speaking to amendments Nos. 34 and 35 that the provisions relating to Belfast will be commenced separately by order subject to affirmative resolution of both Houses and considered on the Floor of this House.
New schedule 2(9) provides that, in relation to Belfast districts, before issuing or revising a local policing plan under section 22 of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000, the district commander shall consult the relevant sub-group, in addition to the main DPP, and take account of any views expressed. That is a practical requirement. Having given the sub-groups a role in consulting their district, it would be odd if the district commander were denied their views when it came to the police's drawing up the annual plan for the district. I assure hon. Members that each commander will also be required during the development of the plan to seek the views of the main Belfast DPP. We are not seeking to circumvent that.
David Burnside: Will the Minister outline in her proposals for the four sub-groups the views, to her knowledge, of all the political parties in Northern Ireland? Who has told her that they are in favour, against or neutral?
Jane Kennedy: In the consultation that I took forward in the fall of last year, there were differences of opinion. Very few political parties supported the text that we are discussing. The hon. Gentleman's party objected to the proposals. Indeed, concerns were expressed by members of the Policing Board about how they would work. I hope that in some way clarifying our intention in introducing the proposals will reassure those who have concerns.
Mr. Mallon: Will the Minister help me to understand why a commencement order will be required for sub-groups?
Jane Kennedy: That was one of the issues—I think I am being as honest as I can be with the House—that we undertook in response to the Weston Park talks. My hon. Friend's party did not press us on the issue, but Sinn Fein certainly did. [Hon. Members: "Ah."] I did not believe that there was any doubt about that. That is why the commencement clause is in the Bill. We believe that the sub-groups will work as they are constituted. Having considered the ideas that we are discussing today—notwithstanding the difficulties that may arise
in the constitutions of different sub-groups, rather than in their representativeness—I think that our proposals make a lot of sense. I have fewer anxieties than other hon. Members may have.6.15 pm
What is proposed in this group of Government amendments is broadly practical. Having given the sub-groups a role in consulting the DPP, it seems sensible to give the commanders—who will be drawing the district policing plans together and working with the sub-groups and the DPP—the opportunity to consider and take account of their views.
The amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Mr. Davies) relates to this point. I draw hon. Members' attention to new schedule 2(2). Hon. Members will be aware that section 15 of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 provides for a situation in which a district council fails to set up a DPP in accordance with the statutory provisions. We wanted to ensure that there was a similar provision to deal with the situation if Belfast city council failed to set up sub-groups in accordance with the new requirements that we have discussed. As hon. Members will know, when the DPPs were being developed, some local authorities were more enthusiastic than others. However, I did not believe it right that any local authority, if it contained a majority from a party that disagreed with the establishment of a DPP, should be able to block it. The same notion should apply to the sub-groups in Belfast, and the proposed new section 15A seeks to ensure that that happens. It is simply a consequential change that is consistent with the existing provisions. That is why I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman's proposal.
Mr. Carmichael: There is surely a distinction between the situation that the Minister has outlined and the one that exists. There is already a district policing partnership in Belfast, so there is no question of one not being set up. The Government seem to be imposing their will on Belfast city council in relation to the constitution of the sub-groups. There is merit in allowing the council some flexibility. As far as I can see, the council is starting to work well on a cross-community basis. It has a Sinn Fein mayor, which many would have thought an impossibility a few years ago. Why do we not have confidence in the people of Belfast, as a whole, to work together?
Jane Kennedy: There would have been Belfast sub-groups anyway; we are seeking to enhance the role of those sub-groups. It is appropriate that the Belfast DPP and Belfast city council should be required to establish a sub-group in each of the four policing districts in Belfast. It is worth pointing out that the Belfast DPP retains responsibility for ensuring that those sub-groups function properly. If it has concerns about a particular sub-group, it will be for the DPP, in the first instance, to respond to those concerns, perhaps raising them with the Policing Board and Belfast city council.
I apologise for taking quite a little time to explain those points, but we are dealing with new issues and I felt it important to offer them to the House for debate.
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