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27 Mar 2003 : Column 513—continued
Mr. Carmichael: That was pitiful. Go for the Government for once.
Mr. Davies: The hon. Gentleman is less than fair. Had he followed our Northern Ireland debates, he would have seen that I rarely do anything else. However, I hope that I do so constructively. We oppose only when we think that there is a need to oppose. We are happy to support the Government—even on difficult matters, such as the 50:50 arrangements in section 46—when we think that it is right to do so. Of course we oppose when we see the Government making mistakes; and we ask questions, as I have been doing, when we think that there is a possibility of the Government making mistakes in legislation.
Let me return to the main thrust of the DUP's new clause. A second reading of it reveals the sleight of hand. The sentence that I read out is intended to replace the whole of section 46 of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000, thus removing the 50:50 mechanism. I know that the hon. Member for North Antrim and his hon. Friends have consistently opposed that mechanism. I have said before from the Dispatch Box that there is not only a cogent intellectual argument, but a strong moral argument for opposing any discrimination of that kind. Because a balance must be struck between alternatives—neither of which is ideal—we have concluded that we ought to allow derogation, at least temporarily, from the principle of non-discrimination. That is why we support the 50:50 mechanism. We have taken that decision, so it will come as no surprise to the hon. Member for North Antrim and his hon. Friends that we shall be consistent with that decision today. We are therefore unable to support new clause 12.
Lembit Öpik: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the Conservative party was in error to oppose the 50:50 mechanism in the past?
Mr. Davies: I have been asked that question before—I think, by the hon. Member for North Down. It seems extraordinary that I should be asked, by the Liberal Democrats of all people, a question about consistency, a virtue to which I and my right hon. and hon. Friends subscribe. There is an irony in that question.
4.15 pm
Mr. Carmichael: Answer the question.
Mr. Davies: I must be allowed to make that introductory comment, but of course I intend to turn to the question. I have said in the past that this is a very difficult decision. Indeed, I have never mentioned this point without saying that it has been a difficult decision for my party. I quite understand the strong reservations that members of my party have about this matter, and the fact that a different view has been taken in the past.
I speak from the Dispatch Box in support of my right hon. and hon. Friends. The Conservative party feels that we do not live in an ideal world; we live in a world that is never completely ideal, and there is sometimes a conflict between desirable objectives. There is a conflict between principles to which we are attached, and one must have the courage to face up to that honestly and say what one is going to do. One has to prioritise these principles; there must sometimes be a hierarchy of objectives.
We have also taken the view that the need to make a success of the peace process in Northern Ireland and to establish a Police Service in Northern Ireland that, for the first time since partition, if not before, really has a chance of gaining the allegiance of the whole population, is a sufficiently important objective to warrant a derogation, which must be temporary—I have always insisted on the word "temporary"—from the principles to which, in theory and in principle, the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) and I are both attached. I hope that I have dealt with that matter.
I am expecting to be asked that question whenever I speak about policing in Northern Ireland. After all, that is what we are here for: to respond to the concerns of colleagues on both sides of the House. I am perfectly happy to go on answering the same question, but I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman will be disappointed if he finds that in future I give a very different answer.
Lembit Öpik: I understand that the hon. Gentleman wishes to move on, and I think that we have got as full an answer as we are going to get. I asked that question because, at one point, we worked very hard with the Conservatives, together with the Ulster Unionist and Democratic Unionist parties, to oppose the Government's introduction of 50:50. It is more than slightly surprising and disappointing to some of us that the Conservatives seem to have withdrawn on what the hon. Gentleman in his own words described as a principle.
Mr. Davies: I have explained that there are at least two principles at stake. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that, in politics, one often takes a stand on an issue and loses the debate, and the situation moves on. One then has to decide whether to expend one's energies trying to unravel what has been achieved or to address current and future problems. We have taken the latter course, so there is no question of going back and trying to unravel the Mandelson Act. In fact, I have criticised the Government in these debates for trying to unravel the Mandelson Act, and we shall continue to do so. I am putting our focus on opposing making the
Mandelson Act a great deal worse by introducing not only the basic Bill, which has some nasty flaws, but the initial new clauses that the Government suddenly decided to table, which were the subject of my remarks yesterday. I spoke at length on these matters yesterday, so I need not remind the House now of our strong feelings on those subjects.
Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire): Is my hon. Friend aware that the Government may not even be certain of how much support they receive from hon. Members on their own Back Benches? He may not yet have seen a written answer that I received today. The Secretary of State now says that on 23 February, at public expense, he entertained
- "a party of backbench Labour MPs"
Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. That is a very lengthy intervention.
Mr. Davies: That sounds extremely dubious. I thought that when the Government of the day—the Executive branch—were entertaining the legislature they would always do it on an all-party basis. I hope that my hon. Friend will send a copy of the document that he has just quoted, which is now on the record—we are all grateful to him for putting it on the record—to the Public Accounts Committee.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. May we return to the debate on the new clause in question?
Mr. Davies: Indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker—the more so because I am reaching the key point in my remarks.
New clause 20 is our main and, I think I can fairly say, original contribution to the issue of how to address the problem of police numbers in Northern Ireland at the present time. I would be grateful for the opportunity to discover the House's views on the new clause, so I shall press it to a vote, if I am able to do so, in a few moments' time.
New clause 20 is based on the acceptance of section 46 of the 2000 Act and the 50:50 mechanism, which we have just discussed. It would address not only one of the injustices, but one of the dysfunctions of the present system, which occurs when those from the Protestant or other community—perhaps that is the best way that I can describe it—have passed the tests and met the recruitment standards to be sent to the police training college in Northern Ireland and are told that their names cannot go forward because not enough people in the other category, the Catholic category, have put themselves forward, so they cannot be admitted to a career for which they would qualify.
That is unfortunate from two points of view. It is clearly unfortunate because the Police Service of Northern Ireland loses a potentially good recruit, and it is very unfair and unjust for the individual who is told, "Right, you passed the exam, but you can't have the prize. Indeed, other people who may not have higher marks than you will have the prize." So the question is how to try at least to reduce those anomalies and the sense of unfairness that results.
We propose in new clause 20 that, when any candidate has passed muster, scored the necessary marks and qualified for admission to the Police Service of Northern Ireland, that candidate should not be told, "Sorry, you aren't going to be recruited because you are in the wrong community group. Go away. That's the end of it." Instead, that candidate would be told, "I am sorry, we can't take you on today because of the 50:50 mechanism, but you will go on to a waiting list, or into a pool, and you will go forward as soon as you can." That response is a great deal better.
Mr. Swire: Does my hon. Friend not think that, in the interests of fairness, those who have gone through that process and qualified should be told that they will be given places in the police, perhaps on mainland Britain, in the United Kingdom until such time as the quota changes and they can go back?
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