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27 Mar 2003 : Column 544—continued
6.23 pm
Mr. Carmichael: The hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) started his remarks with a sobering and timely reminder of the importance of policing to the situation in Northern Ireland and the real and tragic human cost of not accepting its importance. His remarks were very pertinent to this Third Reading.
The hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Mr. Davies) referred in his opening remarks to the Minister, suggesting that there had been a slight tetchiness. For my part, I have found the Minister nothing but charming throughout the passage of the Bill, especially once she realised that we were supporting her. My hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) said to me at one stage, "Someone needs a hug."
I do not know whether he was referring to the Minister or the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford; I shall leave hon. Members to draw their own conclusions.I should like to comment in passing that the conduct of today's business in particular has vindicated the decision taken by the Liberal Democrats, along with Conservative Members, to vote against the timetabling motion yesterday. I hope that, once the smoke of battle has cleared, so to speak, the Government might take that consideration on board.
The Liberal Democrats will support the Government in the Lobby on Third Reading, but we shall do so with just a slight hesitation. We will support them in no small measure because of the very generous concession that the Secretary of State made to my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire yesterday in relation to proceedings on new clause 2, particularly his admission that the judgment of when acts of completion had been carried out was a political question. I found his candour on that issue helpful and refreshing.
The Minister opened her speech by referring to the Patten report. She said that the Bill was an extension of Patten and the next stage. I do not take too much issue with that suggestion. The Patten report seems to be a little like the Bible, as everybody can find something that they are happy to quote with approval—
Mr. Carmichael: I can say sincerely that I do not intend any sacrilege. Let me say instead that the use of the Patten report is a bit like the use of the Bible in that respect.
We are broadly supportive of the Government's aims on policing. We recognise the importance of cross-community involvement in the police service. As the Minister must surely now understand, we are not yet convinced that 50:50 recruitment is a suitable mechanism for achieving that aim, but we will simply have to agree to disagree on that point. We recognise the importance of policing at the very heart of the process of normalisation.
The Minister spoke about the wider political context, which is also worthy of consideration, and about the need for a restoration in trust. That strikes at the very heart of the matter. However, I remind her of the remarks that I made yesterday about the fact that the Government have a role to play. She spoke about real, total and permanent acts of completion. For our part, we would prefer "full cessation of violence" as a form of words, but it amounts to the same point at the end of the day. I say to her that the Government set themselves a very high standard—real, total and permanent—and that, if they should find themselves tempted to fall in any way below that very high standard, they would risk doing serious damage to the process that they have sought to pursue with some vigour and with no small measure of success, as today's proceedings have indicated. It is all very well for me to say, as we did yesterday, that that would be a point of disruption for us. That is largely academic. If it were to happen, it would be a point of disruption not only for us, but for the wider community. That is why the maintenance of those very high standards is so important.
6.28 pm
Lady Hermon: I am very pleased to be called to speak on the Third Reading of this very important Bill.
I should like to take my cue from the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon), with whom I often find myself in agreement, although not always. It is a pleasure to have him here this evening. The cue is that he referred to his constituency and the experience from which he spoke, and I respect his experience. I should like to spend a few moments on my experience in North Down.
North Down was strongly supportive of the Belfast agreement, but nothing has undermined confidence in the agreement more than police reform. That is undoubtedly a fact, as will be shown in the forthcoming elections.
Despite that, I have attended Unionist meetings on many occasions—although not recently—and expressed not enthusiasm but criticism. I have said that I want Sinn Fein members to take their rightful places on the Policing Board, and to call on young republicans to enter the police service and take responsibility for policing rather than passing the burden to someone else. They may see it as a poisoned chalice, but they should be invited to take up that poisoned chalice and carry the burden along with everyone else.
As Members can probably tell from my tone of voice, I am deeply angry about the fact that the Provisional IRA will turn out to have been responsible for the Castlereagh raids. Their responsibility is no longer a hidden secret. That was on 17 March last year; as if we were not satisfied with that, there was then the revelation that a substantial spy ring had been operating for some time at the heart of Government.
My confidence has been completely undermined by the events that have taken place since spring last year. I do not think I am alone in saying, as a Unionist, that my confidence in Sinn Fein needs to be rebuilt—and that cannot be done if Sinn Fein are tied in any way to a paramilitary army.
I thank the Minister for taking my intervention earlier. One issue is fundamental to whether my party supports the Bill this evening. I understood the Minister to have made it clear that the commencement orders would be made only once acts of completion had taken place. Today, however, we were told that they would be made in the context of acts of completion. That, I am afraid, is not enough to rebuild our confidence, and makes it impossible for us to support the Bill—unless the Minister wishes to intervene now and tell me that the orders will be made after acts of completion.
I say that with regret. I spoke on Second Reading, before the addition of the two clauses relating to district policing partnerships, disqualification of those with convictions and the Belfast sub-groups. I made clear our recognition that the vast majority of the Bill had come to the House of Commons at the request of the Policing Board, which has done a magnificent job in serving the entire Northern Ireland community. It had come to us at the request of the Chief Constable himself. I do not want to undermine the wonderful job that the board has done, or the wonderful job that our new Chief Constable is doing. That is why, on reflection, I supported new clause 4. We need more detectives because of the increased crime throughout Northern Ireland, which does not exclude North Down.
I distinctly remember welcoming, on Second Reading, the additional resources for the Chief Constable, particularly investigation officers, detention officers and escort officers. There was nothing new about that, in that it duplicated existing arrangements in Great Britain provided for in the Police Reform Act 2002.
It is with deep regret that, if the Minister cannot assure me that the commencement orders will be made after acts of completion—
Lady Hermon: Oh, thank you. Excellent.
Jane Kennedy: I hope I can reassure the hon. Lady by reverting to the phrase used yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. He said that the clauses we were debating would
- "not come into effect unless there are acts of completion. They will not come into effect unless we have agreement that those acts of completion have been dealt with."—[Official Report, 26 March 2003; Vol. 402, c. 361.]
Lady Hermon: I thank the Minister for clarifying that point, and I look forward to the agreement of the hon. Member for North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley). I listened carefully to what the Secretary of State said yesterday, but I did not actually think that it clarified matters.
Lembit Öpik: I am sure the hon. Lady agrees that one thing that still needs to be clarified is who is involved in the process of agreement. Unless the Minister wishes to intervene again, I shall assume that agreement must come from all sides in Northern Ireland.
Lady Hermon: I hope that the Minister will intervene on me again, because I am not happy with what she has said. I certainly understood, following talks at Hillsborough, that that was the context—that the commencement orders would not be made until the acts of completion. Therefore, I am disappointed that we cannot have a categorical clarification on the Floor of the House that they will come after the acts of completion.
The reason I say that is that we must build trust back up, as the Minister said, in both communities. The Unionist community believes in devolution and in sharing power in the Executive. I certainly do. I cannot wait for the Executive and Assembly to be up and running again; I am deeply committed to devolution. However, there will not be trust unless the people of Northern Ireland—not just one community but all the people of Northern Ireland—can be assured. They deserve to know that those who sit in government are in no way connected to a paramilitary army. That is all I am asking for.
The vast majority of the Bill comes, rightly, from a unanimous Policing Board, which I commend warmly, and from the new Chief Constable, who is doing an extremely good job in very difficult circumstances. It is with a heavy heart that I say that, unless we have clarification, we cannot support the measure on Third Reading.
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