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27 Mar 2003 : Column 551—continued
David Burnside: Will the hon. Gentleman clarify his party's position? If, as he recognises, Sinn Fein is involved in the continuation of terrorist activity, and we reach the stage where it is invited, within the law, to come on to the Policing Board, will his party withdraw from the board with the Ulster Unionists?
Rev. Ian Paisley: I have already said that publicly. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman does not read newspapers, although perhaps he does not read those newspapers that report me. We certainly will not be on any Policing Board with IRA-Sinn Fein—how could we, when we have taken a stand on the Executive and tried to be absolutely consistent? If Members want to close the Policing Board, vote for this; if they want to take the Unionists off the board, vote for it. That is what is happening. I said publicly in Omagh the other night—it was recorded in the press—that the Chief Constable does not know what he is doing when he is telling people these things.
I greatly resent what the Minister said about the way in which the police were received in the White House. Royal Ulster Constabulary Members, including Sir Ronnie Flanagan, were well received in the White House years ago. To say that the way in which the White House is receiving the police shows for the first time how successful this initiative is ignores the fact that the police force can never be successful until it is completely democratic. It is not totally democratic when it closes the doors, puts on the locks, and says to the Protestant people, "You're not getting your position, but you will get it by a percentage." However, we are not even talking about the true percentage, because there are more than 50 per cent. Protestants in Northern Ireland. Also, others who are not Protestants or Roman Catholics are put in together, and told that they will get 50 per cent.; however, the Roman Catholics will get 50 per cent.
I do not know what ear the Minister is listening out of. I was with the Chief Constable and a deputation some time ago. He told me that it was impossible to police Northern Ireland at the moment because of the 50:50 rule. That is what he told me, and I have evidence for that. That is a fact. What is more, never has the 50:50 rule been kept to, because it is impossible to keep to it. Sometimes, it could be 52 per cent. or 53 per cent., but that cannot be tested. I need to say tonight that this House must take care in what it is doing about the police in Northern Ireland.
6.55 pm
David Burnside: Time is short. Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), I will take great pleasure in voting against the Government tonight, because their record on policing in Northern Ireland and their destruction of the Royal Ulster
Constabulary are a disgrace. The Government should be ashamed of that, rather than heralding it as a new start to policing.Because of the restrictions on time, I was unable to move new clause 15, which would have recognised the law-abiding community in Northern Ireland—people who were proud of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. As my hon. Friend the Member for North Down knows, the RUC was incorporated in existing law, but was operationally ripped out of Northern Ireland—from the force, from the police stations and from the insignia. There was to be no display of any sign of Britishness, although a later decision made an exception to incorporate a crown in the new badge of the Police Service of Northern Ireland.
I have been here only two years, unlike the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon), who has been here for almost 30 years. However, I will play the long game for as long as the Unionists of South Antrim select me and elect me. The elected majority in this House will come and it will go—I should say, elected dictatorship, not elected majority. There will come a time in this House when the smaller parties will hold the balance of power and we will have an opportunity to restore the dignity, operationally, of the name of the Royal Ulster Constabulary.
I look forward to opposing this motion, which will not improve policing. In four weeks' time, a deal will be put to the parties in Northern Ireland. I can assure hon. Members that the Unionist people of Northern Ireland will look at that deal. At present, we read about it only in The Irish Times, the Irish Independent and our local papers in Northern Ireland; but we will look at that deal and evaluate it. We will make our judgment on whether Sinn Fein is a legitimate democratic party. That judgment will be heard loud and clear in the governing body that rules my party—the Ulster Unionist Council. A clear message will be sent to this House that we have been fooled and conned for long enough in the political process called the peace process, and that we will try to move ahead in a new, democratic and accountable way. At present, the process is not working and does not reflect the views of the law-abiding unionist people of Northern Ireland.
Like my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley), I will not support any move to have representatives from my party on the Policing Board with Sinn Fein-IRA, and nor will I support Sinn Fein-IRA coming into the Executive of Northern Ireland in the foreseeable future.
Question put, That the Bill be now read a Third time:—
The House divided: Ayes 216, Noes 98.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Allan, Richard
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Banks, Tony
Barron, rh Kevin
Battle, John
Berry, Roger
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Bradshaw, Ben
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Browne, Desmond
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burstow, Paul
Byers, rh Stephen
Cairns, David
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Caplin, Ivor
Carmichael, Alistair
Casale, Roger
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)
Coffey, Ms Ann
Coleman, Iain
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom (Tooting)
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davidson, Ian
Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Brian H.
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drew, David (Stroud)
Drown, Ms Julia
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Farrelly, Paul
Fisher, Mark
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Healey, John
Heath, David
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Margaret
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Kaufman, rh Gerald
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Kidney, David
King, Andy (Rugby)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lamb, Norman
Lammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Linton, Martin
Love, Andrew
Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McCafferty, Chris
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNamara, Kevin
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
Mallaber, Judy
Mallon, Seamus
Mandelson, rh Peter
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Meale, Alan (Mansfield)
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, David
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Moran, Margaret
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purnell, James
Quin, rh Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Rendel, David
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruddock, Joan
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sheridan, Jim
Shipley, Ms Debra
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Squire, Rachel
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Thurso, John
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Winnick, David
Wood, Mike (Batley)
Woodward, Shaun
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Nick Ainger and
Jim Fitzpatrick
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Arbuthnot, rh James
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Bacon, Richard
Barker, Gregory
Baron, John (Billericay)
Bellingham, Henry
Bercow, John
Blunt, Crispin
Boswell, Tim
Burns, Simon
Burnside, David
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chope, Christopher
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Collins, Tim
Conway, Derek
Cran, James (Beverley)
Curry, rh David
Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Evans, Nigel
Fabricant, Michael
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francois, Mark
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Hammond, Philip
Hawkins, Nick
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, rh David
Hendry, Charles
Hermon, Lady
Horam, John (Orpington)
Hunter, Andrew
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson, Boris (Henley)
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, rh Oliver
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Maples, John
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
Mercer, Patrick
Norman, Archie
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paisley, Rev. Ian
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Randall, John
Redwood, rh John
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, David
Sayeed, Jonathan
Selous, Andrew
Shepherd, Richard
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Swayne, Desmond
Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Syms, Robert
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Tredinnick, David
Tyrie, Andrew
Waterson, Nigel
Whittingdale, John
Wiggin, Bill
Wilkinson, John
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Mark Hoban and
Mr. Laurence Robertson
Question accordingly agreed to.
Bill read the Third time, and passed.
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