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2 Apr 2003 : Column 944—continued
2 pm
Mr. Heath : I beg to move amendment No. 166, in page 4, line 36, leave out clause 6.
The clause is somewhat surprising in that it removes the duty on the custody officer under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 to make a record of the property of detained persons when taking them into custody. We had an interesting debate in the Standing Committee, and I am especially grateful for the contribution made by the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Malins), whom we miss today. He clearly stated the arguments for not removing that duty on custody officers.
The Minister's argument for doing so was highly pragmatic, focusing simply on reducing the bureaucratic requirements on police officers and thereby simplifying their task—[Interruption.] Does the hon. Gentleman wish to intervene?
Mr. Heath: The Minister agrees, as one would expect, that his approach in Committee was pragmatic. There was no more substance to his argument than that having to record every item taken from a detained person could be a relatively time-consuming practice and that the police officer's lot would be much easier if that duty were removed. He spoiled his argument somewhat by adding that he expected guidance to suggest to custody officers that making a record of property was a very good idea and good practice, although not essential in every case. I found that rather difficult to understand—the Minister looks puzzled, but I assure him that that is what he said.
There is a strong counter-argument to that contention. First, if something is considered good practice but not desirable in all cases, I simply do not understand how one identifies cases in which it is not necessary to record property taken from a detained person, and cases in which it is right to do so. That is not a test that can be left to the good sense of the custody sergeant, because it would depend on the subsequent actions of the person taken into custody—whether they
wished to make a formal complaint—which is something that he or she could not normally foresee at that point.Two arguments must be adduced, the first of which centres on the interests of the detained person. There is a question about that, although that is not to impugn the honesty, integrity or thoroughness of members of the police force who are responsible for custody suites. My experience is that they are normally the most experienced and capable officers and they take their responsibilities extremely seriously. Nevertheless, when a person's property is confiscated, it is right that there should be some form of receipt for the articles taken. I find it difficult to conceive of a circumstance in which that would not be appropriate.
In conjunction with that general point is the finer point made by the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which expressed serious concern. The Joint Committee took cognisance of, but questioned, the Minister's assertion that the Bill does not engage protocol 1, article 1, of the European convention on human rights. The Joint Committee believes that under that protocol the authority for the confiscation of property is questionable, and that to confiscate and make no record makes the practice still more questionable. I agree. There is a potential violation of human rights in this instance and the Government should reflect carefully on whether the certification that they have provided is accurate in the light of the Joint Committee's advice.
My second argument against removing the practice of recording a detained person's property is, I believe, more salient: making a record is for the protection of the police. I know perfectly well that among those who are regularly arrested for one offence or another there is a culture of finding reasons to enter a complaint against the police about the treatment that they have received. That is standard practice—when I was involved with a police authority, it was almost endemic. To provide an entirely new context in which complaints can be made—to enable people to claim, "That sergeant took away £50 that I had in my pocket and he ain't given it back," or that some other item of property that the person had or pretends to have had on his person was not returned—will open up a new industry of complaints against the police.
In this country, complaints against the police are investigated properly. Any potential saving in bureaucracy made by not recording items taken from individuals will be more than compensated for—indeed, excessively compensated for—by the bureaucracy involved in investigating spurious or other complaints against custody officers about unrecorded materials claimed to have been taken from the arrested person and not returned at the due point. It seems to me that police officers need the protection and the certainty of having provided an itemised list and agreed it with the arrested person at the point of being taken into custody.
Vera Baird (Redcar): Would not all the difficulties that the hon. Gentleman foresees be solved if there were guidance to the effect that, at the custody desk, property should be put into a bag, which is then sealed? The
sergeant and the defendant sign the seal, which thereby presents its own record. That would save the time that is currently spent compiling a list.
Mr. Heath: The hon. and learned Lady remakes a point that was made in Committee. There are alternative approaches that the Government could have used. I agree that having a bag sealed in the presence of the arrested person with his or her agreement, or keeping a record that the individual withheld assent to that process, gives the police officer essential protection. That is a proposal that the Government could have made, but have not.
John Mann (Bassetlaw): Has the hon. Gentleman discussed protection of police officers' interests with the Police Federation, and does the federation concur with him?
Mr. Heath: I shall be perfectly open and say that I have not discussed that specific point. However, I have some experience of policing from my involvement in a police authority and I am aware of the distortions that can arise. Individual officers will have two thoughts in their head. They will rightly be concerned about how to reduce their workload and about how they are protected, which is the other side of the coin. The proposal of the hon. and learned Member for Redcar (Vera Baird) would have the benefit of achieving both aims, as it would reduce the workload to a manageable level and prevent spurious complaints against police officers doing their duty.
The only difficulty relates not to articles, but to money. That is a serious issue, and it was raised in Committee by the hon. Member for Woking, who was concerned that, at the very least, a record should be made of any amount of cash taken from a person at the point of their being taken into custody. It is self-evidently right and proper that that should be done. I am sure that the Minister will tell us that the guidance will say that it should be done. If so, why does not the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984—the basis for the codes of conduct and conduct in the custody suite—say the same thing? Why does the clause amend that Act by removing any requirement to record such information? Why have the Government not tabled an appropriate amendment that takes into account the concerns that have properly been expressed? The Minister appears to share those concerns, at least in part, as he seemed to indicate assent to the view that guidance would be given about recording amounts of cash.
Even at this stage, there is nothing to prevent the Government from saying that they will amend the Bill to provide protection. If they will not do so, the House should reject the clause and ask them to look again at the subject, and formulate a proposal that achieves the objective of reducing bureaucracy while also reducing the possibility of abuse of the process, whether on the part of the police officer or, as is far more likely, on the part of the arrested person in the form of a spurious complaint. In the event of such a complaint, much less of a defence will be available to the police officer if no record is kept.
I ask hon. Members seriously to consider the matter. Although it is small in the context of the whole Bill, it is nevertheless serious in terms of police procedure. I hope that hon. Members will take seriously the points raised not only by me but by a wide cross-section of the House.
Mr. Grieve : The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) made a powerful case in favour of the amendment. Unlike the earlier amendment that touched on the civil liberties of the citizen, it does not deal with some great constitutional principle, but relates to an area—I am slightly mystified about this—in which there seems to be a divergence between the views of hon. Members, including myself as a legal practitioner, about what is in the best interests of all parties, including police and defendants, and the view that the police have clearly advanced, which the Minister has accepted in the clause.
It is incumbent on me to explain why I take that view. My hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Malins) made a powerful case about the matter in Committee. He started by saying that it was extremely useful for a full list to be made of a detained person's property. I concur with that view, because such a list assists both the police and, subsequently, the prosecution—a point to which I shall return in a moment. Of course, it is also a protection for the defendant, as a proper list of property ensures that he will get all his property back, and for the police, as it ensures that they cannot be subject to any allegation that they have held on to somebody's property improperly. While I accept the point made by the hon. and learned Member for Redcar (Vera Baird), who said that it might be possible to put all the items into a sealed bag, I believe that a written record provides better reassurance.
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