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3 Apr 2003 : Column 1117—continued
Rob Marris: I too read the survey results in The Independent, which is my newspaper of choice. I reflected deeply, and it struck me that we have two options. I invite the hon. Gentleman to agree or disagree. In my opinion, either we suspend the domestic agenda or we continue it, taking due note of the fact that the most important item on it is the fact that our troops are fighting overseas. Does the hon. Gentleman think we should suspend the domestic agenda or not? If he thinks we should not suspend it, let me say that I suspect that some of his hon. Friends would criticise the Government if announcements were delayed, for instance, and would suggest that the Government were burying information by not releasing it.
Mr. Tyler: I understand what the hon. Gentleman is saying, but I do not think he was listening very carefully to what I was saying. My criticism is this: we seem to have lost the balance in the media, and I think the Government have taken advantage of it. That is not just a criticism of the Government; I am criticising editorial balance. I think the distinction is important.
For everyone's sake—for the sake of our troops, the people of Iraq, those in the wider middle east and indeed the international community—we must simply hope and pray that the war is over soon. But that is also a good reason for trying to be sure that we return to a world in which the media take responsibility for balance—a balance that I believe is desperately needed at the moment.
3.22 pm
David Winnick (Walsall, North): I apologise for the fact that I must leave relatively early. I hope I shall be forgiven. Normally I would be present for most of the debate, but I am attending a meeting of the Select Committee on Home Affairs.
I agree with what was said by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dudley, North (Ross Cranston) about manufacturing industry. He and I, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris), know only too well what happened in the 1980s and early 1990s, when two major recessions caused so much harm to the black country manufacturing industry. We still experience many problems, but I believe that the situation has greatly improved.
I want to concentrate on the military conflict. I agreed with some of what was said by the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) about journalists. It is important to recognise their right to report. I do not agree with some of what they say—I am thinking particularly of one or two who have reported from Baghdad—but they have every right to put their views in a free and democratic country. I refer, of course, to the country to which they report.
As the hon. Gentleman said, a number of journalists have already died in the last fortnight. We recognise their courage in reporting the war, and note that we are better informed as a result of their journalism. I certainly do not agree with those who engage in journalist-baiting.
As was mentioned during questions on the statement by the Secretary of State for Defence, today's newspapers contain interviews with a group of western journalists who had been held in a Baghdad prison on suspicion of spying. When released, they gave information about what had happened in the prison. One, a British journalist employed by the American newspaper Newsday, said
- "There were beatings and torture going on outside our cells, in the corridor".
- "described hearing the screams of other prisoners"
- "being tortured and saw some with eyes and faces bloodied and swollen."
- "Other inmates hobbled round, apparently because the soles of their feet had been burned or otherwise injured."
I shall deal with the subject of post-Saddam Iraq shortly. Let me say first, however, that there would have been no discussion about what would happen in a post-
Saddam Iraq if military action had not been taken. If we had listened to the critics—if we had heeded their advice that action should not be taken, however strongly we believed that the regime was holding weapons of mass destruction—Saddam's rule would have continued indefinitely. Even if he had gone in time, presumably one of his sons, no less a murderous thug, would have taken over. Critics argue, rightly in my view, that a major United Nations role will be needed once the fighting has ceased. Fine; but that would not be part of the scenario, or part of our discussion, had the United States and Britain not taken this action.I believe that virtually every Member—I wish I could say "every Member"—wishes the coalition every possible success: wishes it victory. Yes, it would be nice to say "everyone", but I think everyone present understands why I cannot quite say that. I shall make no further comment about that; I think that the point has been taken. However, it is important to convey to people in Iraq—this is really why I am making this speech—that a permanent foreign occupation is not intended.
It is true that the Iraqi people have not so far come out to greet the soldiers, and why should they? They do not know the outcome, and they have lived for so long under terror and tyranny. As I said before the war began, though, I believe that the vast majority want to get rid of Saddam. What they do not want in any circumstances is permanent occupation of their country, particularly—this may seem derogatory in religious terms—by infidels. We would, I think, make a huge blunder if having achieved the military victory that is so essential, we proceeded to a long period of occupation. That would undermine what we are doing, to some extent. It would not, of course, undermine the freeing of the country from tyranny, but it would confirm the suspicion of people in many countries—not least those in the Islamic world—who do not accept our integrity, and do not believe that we are doing what we are doing for the reason we have given.
We need to clarify our position and, to a large extent, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister did so at yesterday's Question Time. It is disturbing, as I said to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, to read reports that the United States intends to put in a retired general as governor and that the role of the UN will be minimised or confined simply to humanitarian aid. I make the point as strongly as I can that before elections take place—we all agree that there must be an interim period—the governance of the country should be through the United Nations. That is absolutely essential and it must involve those from Muslim countries.
If there is suspicion, concern and anxiety—not among extremists of the Muslim world who have their own agenda, but among other people who are far from extremists—it is because the Palestinian-Israeli conflict has poisoned the atmosphere. As I said in a previous debate, virtually every hon. Member accepts the existence of Israel for reasons that we understand, but it should be an Israel with the 1967 borders. We must also accept the fact that for 55 years the Palestinians have had a raw deal. They have not been accorded dignity or experienced the economic possibilities that they should have had, and so many of them live in wretched refugee camps. The leadership of the western countries must
have an understanding of the plight of the Palestinians, of what they have suffered and of why they feel so bitter and humiliated.All the faults should not be attributed to Israeli action in 1967. I do not accept that. I was a Member of Parliament in 1967 and I said then that Israel had a perfect right to defend itself and not be destroyed. Since then, however, the Israelis have behaved in a manner that is totally wrong: it cannot be justified; it is inexcusable. Unfortunately, Israel has the likes of Sharon and others who are political and religious fundamentalists. Religious fundamentalism is not confined to the Muslim world: there are Christian fundamentalists and there are certainly religious fundamentalists in Israel who argue that because of what God is said to have promised in the Bible, they have the right to all the occupied territories. Of course they do not describe it as such: they talk of Judaea and Samaria.
I welcome the fact that, at long last, a United States President has said that he is in favour, in principle, of a Palestinian state, but he has to demonstrate—more than Britain does—that he will put sufficient pressure on Israel to accept that a sovereign and viable Palestinian state should come into existence alongside Israel. If that happens in the next few years, it would be a great blessing not only for the Palestinians, but for Israelis and the whole international community. The absolute poison of that continued conflict would finally have come to an end.
3.32 pm
Bob Spink (Castle Point): I am sorry to see that so many of the usual suspects are not in their places today. I wonder why not. Perhaps they are a little afraid, have lost their nerve and do not want to turn up to face the music. We should remember Labour's battle cry that things can only get better—a discordant tune that now rings hollow to all my constituents.
Public services are much worse under Labour. Let us examine the facts. The hon. Member for Poplar and Canning Town (Jim Fitzpatrick) is laughing, but my constituents, who have to pay massive council tax bills this year, are not laughing. Local and national taxes have increased massively, whereas street crime, congestion, public transport and hospital waiting lists are all worse than ever. Our local post offices, chemists and the police stations in Castle Point are all under threat from Government policies. Our roads are grinding to a halt and our rail services have become much worse than they ever were. The Government have clearly lost their way.
We must make the Government start to listen to the people again, and the best way to do that is through the local poll booths on 1 May, in about four weeks' time. Our policies are much more relevant to people's needs because we have listened to the people. We learned our lesson—it was tough, but we learned. I am a good example of the Conservative party bouncing back and taking seats from Labour—and we shall take many council seats on 1 May.
Let me go through one or two Tory policies that are relevant to people's needs just now. For instance, we shall deliver more police patrols: 40,000 extra police will patrol our streets to make our communities safer and to
deliver the streets back to the people who pay for them and deserve them. We shall pay for that by stopping the massive asylum payouts. I think that our constituents would welcome that.The Tories will deliver better local services. The people in Castle Point quite rightly compare Southend's Tory-controlled council with their own Labour-controlled council. The Tory-controlled council delivers far better services, at an average cost to people of £400 per year less than Labour-controlled Castle Point. Is it any wonder that this Labour Government branded Labour-controlled Castle Point borough council as failing? Let us see what the people in Castle Point have to say about that on 1 May.
I shall read part of a letter from two of my constituents, Pat and Ken, whom I shall call Mr. and Mrs. W. On 23 March, they wrote:
- "Commencing April, my pension, and that of my wife Pat, will increase by £13 per month for the two of us. Our Council Tax will increase by £18 a month from the same period. We will, therefore, be £5 a month worse off because of these totally unjustified increases. So much for the 'caring' Gordon Brown."
Clearly, my constituents understand what Labour is about. They know that the council tax is yet another Government stealth tax. They know that the council tax increase has very little to do with Essex county council or the local borough council, but that it is to do with the shift of Government grants from the south-east up to the Labour heartlands. My constituents will not be putting up with that for very much longer.
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