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3 Apr 2003 : Column 1149continued
The Parliamentary Secretary, Privy Council Office (Mr. Ben Bradshaw): I always act in the spirit of collective responsibility, if I may give that assurance to the shadow Leader of the House.
I should like to begin by making an apology in advance. The low numbers of hon. Members in the Chamber earlier today led me to assume that I would be in for a marathon, as I was in winding up my first pre-recess Adjournment debate back in the summer, when I think that I spoke for 50 minutes and went through every single detail of every hon. Member's speech. I think that that was widely appreciated. Indeed, the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Mrs. Browning) nods. I shall endeavour to do the same thing today and deal with all the issues, but in case I do not manage to do so, I give an undertaking to hon. Members: if I do not address all the points that they raised, I shall ensure that they are written to about them, as I have done in the past.
My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dudley, North (Ross Cranston) began the debate with a measured and expert assessment of what he saw as the position regarding detainees in Guantanamo bay. I share some of his concerns about the situation and I assure him that the Government are keen for it to be resolved. I repeat to him what the Prime Minister has said on a number of occasionssome of the information that is still being gleaned from the detainees is proving extremely important in the ongoing fight against terrorism. None the less, I assure him that the Government are taking his concerns on board.
My hon. and learned Friend spoke about the very important role of manufacturing industry in his constituency. In particular, he spoke warmly about the role of the Manufacturing Advisory Service. I wholeheartedly concur with him on that point.
My hon. and learned Friend was also one of a number of hon. Members who spoke about the procedures of the House. In particular, he referred to the way in which we deal with taxation law. He will be aware that we are trying as much as we possibly can to improve and increase the amount of pre-legislative scrutiny that we conduct. Hon. Members will see that that is the case in the next few months, as some Bills published in draft will receive pre-legislative scrutiny. It is our wish to move to a situation in which that is overwhelmingly the case. On his suggestion that we debate some matters for too long and other matters for not long enough, I guess that that will always be a matter of personal interest in the subject in question, although I hear what he says.
The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton referred to the old chestnutit is, of course, an important old chestnutof resurfacing the A30. I hope that she was as pleased as I was with this week's announcement that, far from what was predicted by some doom-mongers nationally and locally who said that the resurfacing would not happen for another 10 years, the job will be in the first tranche of resurfacing to take place by 2007 at the latest. In doing that work, we will be repairing the terrible damage done by the previous Government when they ordered those cheap and very noisy concrete roads. None the less, I shall have words with my fellow Ministers in the Department for Transport regarding the point that she made about the contract and the question whether it might be possible for the Government to recoup all or some of the original cost of the road. If she is right in her assertion that the contracts gave an assurance at the time that was not correct, I shall certainly look into that.
Mr. Breed: I am delighted to hear that, but if we wait until 2007, the work will be probably be done approximately when the road was going to resurfaced anyway.
Mr. Bradshaw: That is not the case. Until this Government came to power, there was no commitment to resurface all the noisy concrete roads that were commissioned under the previous Government. We said previously that the work would be done within 10 years and we have now brought that forward for a large number of roads, which will be dealt with by 2007 at the latest.
The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton also raised the issue of telephone masts, which I know is of great concern to her; she has been very involved with the
campaign in our mutual local newspaper. The Government err on the side of caution. I shall ensure that my ministerial colleagues look into the comments of Dr. Blackwell that she quoted from the Express and Echo, which dealt with the importance of taking into account non-thermal effects, and ensure that she receives a response from them in that regard. I am sure that she is aware that, on 20 March, which can only be a couple of weeks ago or less, the Government announced a further two-year project investigating evidence of ill-health around base stations. I hope that that will help to produce some of the more conclusive evidence that we would all like to see.The hon. Lady was absolutely right to say that representatives of the media based in Iraq and the Gulf should exercise responsibility about how much they give away about troop movements. The safety of our forces must always be paramount.
My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Derbyshire (Mr. Barnes) dedicated his whole speech to Iraq. Indeed, we have had rather an unusual pre-recess Adjournment debate in that so many hon. Members understandably talked about Iraq. My hon. Friend rightly emphasised the importance of what will happen in post-Saddam Iraq. We will be judged on what happens in post-Saddam Iraq. Many who were sceptical of, or in outright opposition to, the decision to take military action want the action to be brought to a swift and successful conclusion now that it is under way. I hope that we can unite not only domestically, but internationally so that the Security Council and the European Union unite behind the post-Saddam Iraq that we all want.
I prefer to use the word "redevelopment" rather than "reconstruction" because reconstruction implies that we have caused the destruction. We have not, of course, because it has been caused by more than 20 years of Saddam Hussein's terrible dictatorship and misrule. I am sure that hon. Members are well aware that Iraq was wealthier, per capita, than Portugal or Malaysia before Saddam came to power. However, before the conflict started, 60 per cent. of its population was dependent on help from the oil-for-food programme. Iraq has the second largest oil reserves in the world. It could be wealthy and successful, and I am confident that it will be after Saddam has been deposed and we have had time to help the Iraqi people to redevelop their country.
My hon. Friend quoted at length from what sounded like an interesting book. I have not read it but I shall have a look at it if I have time. I was not totally convinced by all of what he read. It seemed to suggest that the problem we face in Iraq is that we are a former imperial power. That can be said of a lot of places, and there is a flip side to the argument. When I was the Minister responsible for the middle east, I found that people in the region expect us to get involved and engaged because they think that we bear an extra responsibility because of history, and I think that that is right. My experience showed that people in the Arab world, and especially the middle east, welcome British engagement because they think that we have expertise, and we owe it to them because of history.
I do not follow the argument that because we, the United States or any other country might have made mistakes in a part of the world, we should not do the right thing now. Several people have written to me about the Iraqi conflict and made that argument, but I do not understand its logic. My hon. Friend said that our history makes it difficult for us to be the shaper of a post-Saddam Iraq. We have made it perfectly clear that we do not want to shape a post-Saddam Iraq because we want the Iraqi people to do that and for Iraq's administration to pass into the hands of free Iraqis as soon as possible.
Mr. Barnes: I do not understand how we can avoid getting involved in shaping what will happen in Iraq. If we are a conquering force in the area, even if we get hold of other people and the United Nations, our role will be very significant. The past is a problem. There might be advantages of being an imperial power because we would be known in the area and some people might have liked us. However, many others believe that we adopted an exploitative position.
Mr. Bradshaw: With respect to my hon. Friend, I do not accept his use of the terminology "a conquering force". We will be a liberating force, and we already are in the parts of Iraq in which the Iraqi people are sufficiently confident to speak freely and where they feel safe from retribution from Saddam's henchmen. My hon. Friend should look at the model of Afghanistan. Of course, our input and that of the international community was important to help the Afghan people to set up their conference and institutions such as the Loya Jirga, but such things were based firmly on Afghan traditions and practices. I can assure him that the same applies in Iraq. It is not in our interests to be perceived as trying to tell the Iraqi people how they should run their country once they have been liberated. In comparison with Afghanistan, Iraq has not only good natural resources but a highly educated work force and 4 million highly educated people in exile. Many may want to return to help with the redevelopment of their country.
My hon. Friend argued that one of the reasons for inaction was the danger that Saddam might use his chemical or biological weapons. I have never understood the logic of that argument, which suggests that one should do nothing and leave Saddam to continue to develop such weapons and his capability of delivering them further until he poses an even greater danger. Sometimes it is necessary to confront a smaller danger to prevent a greater danger.
I do not share my hon. Friend's pessimism about our ability to help the Iraqis to establish a representative, more democratic regime and I do not agree that the effects will be destabilising to the region. Some people may ask what good stability has done the region in the past few decades, and argue that it needs change, democracy and a few more regimes that respect human rights.
Many hon. Members mentioned the middle east peace process. I believe that the impact of our actions could be positive. Having been the Minister responsible for the middle east, I know that the Israeli population's reluctance to make some of the tough choices that a peace settlement involves is partly due to feeling threatened by states, including Iraq, which remain
dedicated to the destruction of Israel. A different regime in Iraq would make the solution to the middle east peace process easier. It will also encourage the essential engagement of the United States.My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (David Winnick) was right to point out that, whatever one thinks of President Bush, he is the first American president of any political colour not only to commit America to the creation of a Palestinian state and a two-state solution but to support its enshrinement by the United Nations in resolutions. We must use our influence to ensure that he stands by that commitment.
My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Derbyshire has anxieties about the creation of a Kurdish state. Again, I should like to reassure him. The hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink), who visited Iraq, said that the position in northern Iraq had changed. Thanks to the democracy that is enjoyed there, the people have overcome their traditional rivalry and their desire for a Kurdish state. They want autonomy in Iraq, with its borders intact. There is general international agreement about that.
The hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler), like several other hon. Members, dwelt on the media coverage of the war and some of the comments attributed to the Home Secretary. As a former journalist, I take a close interest in that. I agree with hon. Members who said that the journalists out there have shown immense courage. It is not an easy job. It is paradoxical that being in Baghdad is currently almost easier than being embedded. The journalists who are embedded with the forces have not had a shower for weeks and are living in difficult conditions. However, by and large, they are doing a tremendous job.
Sometimes the journalists in Baghdad do not do enough to remind their audiences of the restrictions under which they operate. My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North mentioned the case of the journalists who had been freed after being imprisoned in Iraq. The reporting from journalists who have lived among the Iraqi people and subsequently leave Iraq is different from that of journalists in Baghdad, who are not allowed to say what they want and cannot contact the people they want. A classic example is Johann Hari, the columnist from The Independent, which is an anti-war newspaper. He used to be anti-war but he spent three months in Iraq and wrote that people approached him with the words, "Are you British? Please liberate us." I also think that the BBC and other broadcasters and journalists are sometimes reluctant to make a value judgment about regimes. I believe, as a democrat, that democracy is good, or better. Sometimes, journalists who enjoy the freedoms of a democracy are reticent about making a value judgment that suggests that our form of government, our freedoms or our democracy are better than the system under which the Iraqis have suffered for so long.
The hon. Member for North Cornwall also asked why no weapons of mass destruction had yet been found. That was a bit of a naive question. It is early days, and that is not the main priority of what we are doing at the moment. I draw to his attention the Northern Ireland analogy. We all know that the IRA has had weapons for 30 years. That is widely acknowledged, but we have never been able to find them. So it is not as easy as the
hon. Gentleman suggests, but I confident that, when the regime in Iraq falls and its true nature is revealed, his concerns will be allayed.The hon. Gentleman rightly said that none of us could trust what the Saddam regime said. I thought, however, that he was rather unfair about the newspapers. There has been a lively debate in the newspapers in this country, as there has here. They have not all been blindly supportive of what is going on. The polling of newspaper readerships has also been interesting, in that it reveals that the prejudices of a newspaper's readers does not necessarily reflect the editorial line that that newspaper has adopted on the Iraqi conflict. The hon. Gentleman also hoped that what was going on was not distracting people's attention from domestic issues. We do not have control over that, and, as he rightly said, The Independent did a big piece today about all the so-called bad news that people have not noticed because there is a war going on. As I said at business questions earlier, I could equally point to lots of good news that has not been given very much attention because of the military conflict.
My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North rightly drew hon. Members' attention to the most recent accounts of journalists who had been held captive in Baghdad and who are now free. He robustlyand, I think, rightlydefended the military action that we are taking. He also rightly reiterated the importance of the hearts and minds operation, which I think is becoming more successful every day as parts of southern Iraq are liberated. It is very difficult for us to imagine what it is like to live under that kind of tyranny. People say, "Why aren't they all jumping up and down and throwing flowers over the troops?" In some places, they are, but they are doing it only when they feel really safe to do it, and when it can be guaranteed that there is no chance that we will leave againafter what happened in 1991or that the militia and informers who still live among them will not take their revenge. That is absolutely right. I have said before that part of a successful outcome will be our not staying longer than is absolutely necessary. I have also mentioned the importance of making progress on the middle east peace process.
The hon. Member for Castle Point kicked off his local election campaign with a litany of complaints that made his constituency sound like a bit of a disaster area, although I am sure that it is not. He confidently predicted many gains for his party in the local elections. We shall see. He also complained about the recent local council tax increases. We can all trade stories about that. In my area, for example, my prudent local Labour council in Exeter is putting up its council tax by only 5.7 per cent., even though it received the same amount of money as the Conservative and Liberal Democrat-dominated county council, which is raising its council tax by 18 per cent. We can all trade these examples, but the fact remains that, as the hon. Gentleman well knows, the Government have increased spending on local authorities by 25 per cent. in real terms, compared with a 6 per cent. cut under the previous Conservative Government.
I am afraid that it was in the middle of the hon. Gentleman's speech that I had to go out and get a doughnut, so I am sure that I missed a number of the important constituency points that he raised. If I did miss any, I promise to get back to him. I came back as
he was saying some very sensible things about Iraq and describing the success of democracy in northern Iraq, from his own experience of visiting the area. He also made a number of recommendations that I am not sure are official Conservative party policy, but don't worry, I shall definitely go and check. If they are not, I shall let my party know.The hon. Gentleman also revealed the true, Europhobic face of the Tory party at the end of his speech. When I looked in "Dod's", I noticed that the UK Independence party got a vote bigger than his majority at the last election, so I can understand why he did so.
The hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Amess) raised the issue, of which I was aware, of his constituent who is still awaiting trial in Egypt. The hon. Gentleman has had discussions with Baroness Amos and, indeed, the issue has been discussed by the Prime Minister and the President of Egypt. I shall pass on the request. In my experience, the Egyptian ambassador is a charming man, and I shall mention the issue when I see him next.
I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman is pleased with the outcome of his local planning appeal. Of course, he cannot expect me to comment, as it is a local planning matter, and, as he said, we will have to wait and see whether the applicant appeals. A number of Members, including him, referred to the hours of the House. I think that all those who complained voted against the change, so their complaints are largely to be expected, but I am afraid that they will have to wait a while. There may be teething problems and if there are difficulties with Committees meeting at certain hours there may be things that can be done, but thinking that we will go back to the bad old days after only a few weeks is to hope for too much. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) made clear at the time, the changes that we voted for are for this Parliament, so I do not think that it will be possible to hold a review before it ends.
One reason for the GP vacancies up and down the country is that we are creating a lot more places and it takes time to train GPs. There is a particular problem with single practices, which the hon. Member for Southend, West will be aware of, arising from the Shipman inquiry, but I shall look into the cases that he raised and get back to him.
The hon. Gentleman and his colleague, the hon. Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne), raised certain cases, one involving the giving of bad financial advice and the other a distressing example of a whistleblower who was badly treated. It sounds to me as though both show a need for better regulation of financial services, which is great to hear from the Conservatives as they are usually complaining about
there being too much regulation and the Government being too active. We certainly hear that complaint often from the shadow Leader of the House. I will look into the cases that have been raised and get back to Members. On the health authority complaint raised by the hon. Member for Southend, West, I think, if I understood him rightly, that he is still going to the ombudsman. I wish him well in that endeavour.The hon. Member for South-East Cornwall (Mr. Breed) raised an issue that is important to his constituentsthe discharges in connection with work at Devonport dockyard. I understand that he has been in regular communication with the Environment Agency, and I shall endeavour to get an update for him, given the European Commission statement to which he referred. As he acknowledged, however, there are always two sides to this argument. It is a very difficult subject.
My hon. Friend the Member for Braintree (Mr. Hurst) raised the inability of some parents to get their children into the school of their choice, which will be an important issue to his constituents. A number of us have had that experience, as I have in my constituency, because the population is growing in a particular area or a school is becoming much more popular. In most cases, it is usually possible for the school to expand a little, at least temporarily, although that may not be so in that of his school. However, I am surprised at a policy that involves dividing siblings, which is unusual, so I shall write to the Department for Education and Skills and ask it to respond to his points. I shall also ask whether the solution that he suggests might be considered by it and whether it can encourage the local authority to do so.
The hon. Member for Romford (Mr. Rosindell) is always flying the flag. I think that he made his name during the general election campaign: did he not have a dog with a Union jack coat? I have some sympathy on this. The flying of flags here is, I am told, a matter for Black Rod, so the hon. Gentleman might like to make representations there. Also, he may be interested to know that I had a constituency case in which building workers flew a Union flag because of what is going on in Iraq, but they were told to take it down by the foreman as there was a worry that the site would be picketed by anti-war protestors. It is ridiculous.
I notice that the hon. Gentleman is wearing flag of St. George cuff linksvery tasteful. I am all for reclaiming the flag of St. George and the Union flag as well as hot cross buns for Easter. I am also pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) was able to put on record the facts about his authority. Such stories tend to get blown out of proportion, and we cannot always believe everything we read in the newspapers. That is perhaps a good point to finish.
It being Six o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
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