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4 Apr 2003 : Column 1209—continued
12.38 pm
Mr. Todd: With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
I thank all who have spoken today and, indeed, those who spoke during the Bill's earlier stages. Some have done both. I also thank the co-operative movement in general, particularly Peter Hunt and Matt Ball, who have worked tirelessly in providing information and support. I thank, in particular, the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Mr. O'Brien) for his consistently informed and constructive contributions, and for the time he has devoted to the Bill. I also thank the Treasury team, which has worked extremely well with me and my advisers, particularly the Minister, who has responded with great grace and care. I extend my best wishes to her in her future career both as a Minister and as a mother.
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.
Litter and Fouling of Land by Dogs Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
12.40 pm
Mr. Bob Blizzard (Waveney): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Litter is a very important issue. I obviously think so—it is the second such Bill that I have introduced in the House—and so do my hon. Friends who support the Bill, many of whom supported the previous Bill. I am delighted that we have arrived at Second Reading.
Not just hon. Members but the public at large think that it is an enormously important issue. All hon. Members who have gone round their constituencies knocking on doors and talking to people will know that many more people are concerned about litter and dog fouling than are concerned about other important issues such as the five economic tests for the euro. When I introduced the first Bill, one of the television stations did a poll and found that 97 per cent. of people supported the measure.
Litter is unsightly. It spoils neighbourhoods and all parts of the country. We know that it is a health risk and dangerous, particularly to children. It affects urban areas, rural areas, concrete paved areas, the paths that we walk on and the lovely open spaces that we treasure.
Another reason why the Bill is important is because we are not very good at dealing with the issue. The current culture of this country is that people drop litter in volumes but that we tolerate it. We spend most of the day walking around in the litter and spend a fortune—about £450 million a year—trying to have it cleared away and complaining that it is not all cleared away. I am not sure how much dog fouling material is cleared away, but I am told that about 1,000 tonnes a day are dropped; there is a thought for midday on Friday.
The problem is that we do not enforce the laws. We have had laws for many years. People can be fined, but I think only about 3,000 fixed-penalty fines a year are issued for litter and 2,000 for dog fouling. At the moment, all the revenue is passed to central Government. I understand that that amounts to only about £70,000 a year.
Lawrie Quinn (Scarborough and Whitby): Does my hon. Friend agree that for those of us who have the privilege of representing seaside resorts, it is a particular problem? Many visitors do not have respect for the local environment. The Bill has great support in Scarborough and Whitby, particularly among the seaside communities, which I am sure wish it well.
Mr. Blizzard: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing attention to that. I am sure that the wonderful beaches of Scarborough are marred by litter and dog fouling, as is the beach at Lowestoft, officially the best beach in England.
The problem is that we have not tackled the issue and have made no progress on it. The central contention of the Bill is that only enforcement will work; that is the essence of the Bill. Education, campaigns and saying, "Let's have more bins" will not work. By allowing local authorities to retain the revenue from fixed-penalty fines, we will provide an income stream for enforcement.
That will enable councils to take action and engage them in taking action. We must change the culture that I spoke of a few minutes ago. That culture also exists within councils, which are more geared to clearing up than enforcing the law. The benefit of enforcing the law is that we make the polluter, not the poor taxpayer, pay.The response of the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions, as it was when I first proposed such a measure in 1999, was not supportive. It referred to the perverse incentive, a legal nicety whereby the person prosecuting should not stand to benefit from the prosecution. That may be true in legal schools, but our constituents would surely believe that there should be every incentive to enforce the law in this respect. I am delighted that the Government have changed their mind and that clause 117 of the Local Government Bill, now in the other place, contains the central provision of my Bill.
There are, however, one or two differences between my Bill and the Local Government Bill. The main difference is that in my Bill, the local authority must use the money raised to enforce the litter and dog-fouling laws, but the Local Government Bill makes provision for the local authority to use the money for any of its functions. I can understand the in-built incentive to use the revenue for enforcement, because further revenue will be gained from enforcement. I can also understand why, in theory at least, there may come a time when it will be clean everywhere, so there would be no point in pouring money into enforcement. However, I stress that that will happen in theory rather than in practice and that, even with the measures in my Bill, it will take some time to achieve it.
I am worried that some local authorities might settle for a low level of enforcement and then stop, or divert the money into more bins. If so, we would become a bit cleaner, but still fall way short of what most people would like to see. Even worse, some local authorities might not bother to take up the new powers and the revenue stream. As I said, we have to change the culture of local authorities, otherwise we could end up with postcode litter enforcement, with some authorities doing a much better job than others.
In the past year, about a dozen pilot schemes have been tried and they have taught us two lessons. Authorities such as Newcastle, Manchester and Wigan have taken their responsibilities seriously and have made a great difference. Many fines have been handed out and the revenue gained is there for all to see. Some authorities, though—we should recall that they are all signed up to public service agreements with the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister—have done nothing. We must therefore ensure that all local authorities take the new powers seriously.
How can we best ensure that? I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Minister for Rural Affairs and Urban Quality of Life for entering into discussions with me on that point. I understand that he proposes to use the corporate performance assessment and best value mechanisms, rather than straightforward compulsion. I should be grateful to my right hon. Friend if he would explain to the House in detail exactly how those mechanisms will work.
What guidance will be issued to local authorities to ensure that they—I was about to say "get stuck into" this, but perhaps that is not the right phrase to use—take
advantage of the opportunities provided in my Bill and the Local Government Bill? They will need a kick-start: initial investment will be necessary to employ the first half a dozen wardens, but it will soon be repaid by fines, which could then be used to employ more wardens.
Shona McIsaac (Cleethorpes): I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend's explanation. In Cleethorpes, Immingham and Barton, most of the complaints about litter that I hear are from residents living near large secondary schools, who moan about crisp wrappers, bottles, cans and so forth. How does my hon. Friend envisage his Bill will work when it is young people under 18 who are littering those areas?
Mr. Blizzard: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. I think that, once we have a law that says that we are serious about litter, schools' whole approach will change. They will manage the problem in collaboration with the local authority, but in the knowledge that they have to do so.
Once a momentum gets going in local authorities, there will be an increasing army of litter wardens who can make this country cleaner. How will that cleanliness be assessed? Who will decide on the standard of cleanliness that ascertains that a local authority is fulfilling its functions?
My final question to my right hon. Friend is this: will it be impossible for a local authority to achieve the highest standard of corporate performance assessment and thus gain the flexibility to spend the fines on other things without having succeeded on the best value cleanliness standard? We must ensure that it has to meet that standard.
The Bill is part of the Government's overall agenda for stronger communities and better local environments, along with measures on abandoned cars, graffiti, and nuisance and antisocial behaviour. Dropping litter is antisocial behaviour, and the problem is that it not just a minority who do it—many people who do not consider themselves to be beyond the law in any way are in the habit of dropping litter. We therefore face a major task. Although we know that the majority of our constituents are law-abiding people who will respond to the measure, take it seriously and obey the law, they will do so only if they think that this House and the Government are serious about enforcing it.
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