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4 Apr 2003 : Column 1212—continued
12.51 pm
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield): I have the honour of being one of the Bill's sponsors. It is a genuine cross-party Bill, for the reason that it makes very good sense, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Waveney (Mr. Blizzard) on promoting it. Hon. Members will recall that when he introduced a powerful 10-minute Bill, which had the acquiescence of the whole House, he pointed out many of the facts that he has pointed out today. It is worth repeating that, as he said, £450 million a year is spent on clearing up dogs' mess. He did not comment, however, on the cost to the national health service of treating young children, as well as older people, who have been infected as a consequence of being in contact with dogs' mess.
The Bill is called the Litter and Fouling of Land by Dogs Bill because, sadly, we see dogs' mess not only on our streets and pavements, but on playing fields, where
much damage is done to the health of young people. I say to the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Lawrie Quinn) that the problem is a curse not only in seaside towns—it affects people even in towns and cities such as Lichfield, right in the heart of the country. It is very much a national problem. As the hon. Member for Waveney said, more than 1,000 tonnes a day are—I hate to use the word, but I will—dumped in the United Kingdom, and it really is foul in every sense of the word.In Lichfield, we have two dog wardens. They do their best, but it clearly ain't enough. I like to think that Lichfield is one of the cleaner cathedral cities, but one sees dogs' mess there, too, with all the damage that it causes. Two dog wardens are not enough. Whenever I take that up with the excellent Conservative-controlled Lichfield district council, it says, "We can't afford to have any more." The Bill is a mechanism that will allow it to afford to have more. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Waveney. If the Government decide not to adopt the provision in clause 1(b), which stipulates that the money raised from fining people who commit the offence of allowing their dogs to foul is ring-fenced to pay for more dog wardens, there is a fear that councils that find themselves strapped for cash will use some, or maybe even all, that money for other projects. There will thus be no incentive for councils such as Lichfield to employ more than two dog wardens. The council needs more wardens—six, eight or 10; as many as are necessary to ensure that that curse is eradicated.
In principle, I think that the provisions already exist. The Government sensibly introduced measures whereby authorities can retain fines levied for speeding offences caught on speed cameras. Will the Minister for Rural Affairs and Urban Quality of Life confirm that the money is ring-fenced and that it can be used only for installing more speed cameras?
Lawrie Quinn indicated assent.
Michael Fabricant: The hon. Gentleman suggests that that is so. Surely, in that case, subsection (b) of clause 1 could be included in the Bill that is currently in another place. That is tremendously important, as the hon. Member for Waveney pointed out.
I do not want to detain the House. The Bill is excellent. I am probably about to tempt fate by saying that, in the past month, I have received more letters about dog fouling than about the war on Iraq. That is no bad thing; it demonstrates that people feel as strongly about dog fouling as they do about Iraq. The two issues may be very different, but they are important to people. Dog fouling affects the lives of ordinary people, in the streets where they walk and live, and where they allow their children to play. As I said earlier, the cost of collection may be £450 million a year, but what is the cost to the national health service? What is the cost to people's lives?
12.57 pm
Mr. Robert Syms (Poole): I shall be brief. I congratulate the hon. Member for Waveney (Mr. Blizzard) on his good fortune in the ballot, on a worthwhile Bill that has resonance on both sides of the House and on the manner in which he introduced it. I am sure that the measure will receive all-party support.
The Bill is not anti-dog. Indeed, I should not want to be associated with something that was anti-dog—some of my best friends are dogs.
Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon): The hon. Gentleman's only friends are dogs.
The measure would provide balance. It is reasonable to expect people who keep pets to show responsibility and consideration for other people.
We welcome the Bill. Dog fouling is a major problem. Estimates produced by Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs show that there are 6.8 million dogs in Britain, producing 1,000 tonnes of excrement a day. I wonder who estimates such interesting statistics; no doubt there are people who have more interesting jobs than that of Member of Parliament.
The problem causes great concern to many of our citizens, especially people out walking with their children. There are also particular difficulties for people pushing prams and for wheelchair users. They have problems cleaning dog excrement from the wheels, and it is often trailed into their homes. The Bill is about good citizenship.
Local authorities are under financial pressure due to the grant settlement and, as a result, may not accord the highest priority to the problems addressed by the Bill. I generally welcome the provision that would allow local authorities to keep fines in order to give better services.
More than 60 per cent. of authorities never prosecute for such offences. The Bill would give them a greater incentive to do so, and would ensure that people are good citizens. In 1998, 98 per cent. of local authorities employed dog wardens, but the figure has fallen to 94 per cent., which is of great concern.
Mr. Blizzard: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point. It may be that a relatively high percentage of local authorities have dog wardens, but most of those authorities employ only one or two wardens. They do not do much enforcement work, tending instead to work with dog owners.
Mr. Syms: The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point.
However, the Bill does not address a lacuna. Under section 1(2) of the Dogs (Fouling of Land) Act 1996, an offence is not committed on pavements alongside a carriageway unless there is a speed limit of 40 mph or less. A constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown) has written the following in a letter:
- "I am writing to you as a dog owner. I live in village where we have a few dogs roaming around without their owners and they leave their packages wherever they wish. I have been in touch with the dog warden for this area and he has told me that we have no law in this village to stop dogs from fouling the verges, pavements or play areas due to the fact we have no speed limit in this village. This byelaw stinks. I don't see why the careless owners cannot be fined or told to clean up after the dog. Would it be possible to get this byelaw changed as I think it grossly unfair that, in areas with speed limits in place, action can be taken to the owners, but villages like Condicote with no speed limit have to live with dirty dog owners? I feel that it should be a crime for dog owners, whether you have a speed limit or not. Hope you can help with this problem."
Hon. Members may wonder why I am reading a letter that was sent to the hon. Member for Cotswold. It is because I am delivering his speech for him. Nothing would have prevented him from speaking on this topic except the fact that he has broken his ankle and is in his constituency. I am sure that we all wish him well.
Under Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs codes for dog fouling, citizens are expected to take names and addresses of offenders and report them. Is that really practical? Even if there are inspectors in place, unless there are a considerable number of offenders, or unless somebody is a very persistent offender and is reported, what are the chances of somebody actually being apprehended? Even then, would they be willing to give out their name and address?
What sort of priority will hard-pressed local authorities give to this matter? Will the cost of the fixed-penalty notices begin to recoup the cost of issuing them and enforcing them? Have any costing or regulatory impact assessments been carried out for this Bill? Although we support the aim of the Bill, there are a number of issues that we think ought to be considered carefully. If, as has been mentioned, this is being discussed in debates on the Local Government Bill in the Lords, there are some issues that will have to be considered carefully in order to improve this very important legislation. I commend the hon. Member for Waveney. Conservative Members support the intent of his Bill.
1.2 pm
The Minister for Rural Affairs and Urban Quality of Life (Alun Michael): I am pleased to be able to continue today's theme of general agreement not only between the two Front-Bench spokesmen but between those on the Back Benches and on the Front Benches. I join other hon. Members in sending good wishes to the hon. Member for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown), although I heard my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, East and Saddleworth (Mr. Woolas)—with the gentleness for which Whips are famed—suggesting that the Labour party would regard it as a lame excuse.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Mr. Blizzard) on his efforts in bringing this matter to the House—not only today but on a number of previous occasions. Like him, I feel strongly about the blight caused by people who do not dispose of their litter responsibly or who do not clear up after their dog. I agree that enforcement is needed, and my comments will focus on that. However, I do not want to emphasise only the negative: we should pay tribute to those who act responsibly. Many people up and down the country not only take care of their own litter but take an interest in the tidiness of their general environment in villages and, indeed, in towns and cities.
From environmental work that I promoted as a youth worker before entering this place, I know that young people respond to encouragement and leadership and are willing to go to great lengths to help in tidying the environment. It is not true to say that only enforcement will work. I commend the work of Encams—Environmental Campaigns—the organisation that is
better known as the Tidy Britain campaign or group. The success of many of Encams local campaigns is significant and has involved partnership between Encams and local authorities. The answer is to inject enthusiasm into education and the encouragement of responsibility, and into the issue that my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney has raised—that of enforcement. We need a balance of those two approaches. Neither is adequate on its own, and I am sure that my hon. Friend would not disagree with that. However, as I said, enforcement is necessary.The Government are determined to tackle the problem and to reach a standard of street cleanliness that we all can enjoy. My hon. Friend the Member for Waveney acknowledges that the issues contained in his private Member's Bill are the focus of considerable Government attention. Let me outline our current position on the hypothecation of the revenue from litter and dog fouling fixed-penalty notices, as suggested by my hon. Friend.
A pilot programme began in early 2001, in which three local authorities were allowed to exercise similar provisions to those in the Bill. That was achieved through local public service agreements co-ordinated by my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister, then at the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions. The pilot programme allowed those local authorities to use the revenue from fixed-penalty notices for litter and dog fouling offences further to improve street cleanliness. In particular, the revenue was used to provide more bins and to give financial assistance to the litter and dog warden teams. In all cases, there was a significant increase in the number of fixed-penalty notices for litter and dog fouling offences issued in those areas.
When my hon. Friend first introduced the Bill, the Government were considering extending those pilots schemes and awaiting their outcome. As he has said, the pilot programme was subsequently extended to other local authorities applying for local public service agreements during 2002. Again, that proved very popular with the local authorities involved and, in most cases, results similar to those in earlier trials were achieved.
Building on that success, clause 119 was included in the new Local Government Bill during the summer of 2002 to allow local authorities to retain any sum that they receive from fixed penalties for litter and dog fouling offences, rather than paying them to the Secretary of State, in relation to England, or to the National Assembly for Wales. That clause states specifically for which measures the revenue from fixed-penalty notices can be used.
Authorities will have to use their fixed-penalty receipts to pay for their statutory functions related to litter and dog fouling, including that of giving fixed- penalty notices for leaving litter and failing to clear up after dogs. However, clause 119 also contains a provision for the Secretary of State and the National Assembly for Wales to make further regulations adding to the activities which a certain authority may finance using its fixed-penalty receipts.
For example, the Secretary of State could enable an authority to spend its fixed-penalty receipts on specified activities related to improving the local environment
that are not carried out under its statutory functions relating to litter and dog fouling. The new regulation-making power will be sufficiently wide to give high-performing local authorities complete freedom about how to spend their receipts. My hon. Friend has taken issue with that part of clause 119, but I hope that I can persuade him that that concern is misplaced.Let me stress that complete freedom to spend receipts would be given only where the Secretary of State, or the National Assembly for Wales, is sufficiently satisfied that the local authority's performance justified granting such freedoms and flexibilities. That is part of the wider approach being taken by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and the rest of the Government, and it has been subject to considerable discussion with local government representatives. That judgment would be based clearly on an assessment of a local authority's performance.
I can understand that my hon. Friend does not want local authorities to shy away from their specific responsibilities and to use revenue for activities unrelated to litter and dog fouling when money needs to be spent on those activities—in fairness, and in my experience, nor would most local councillors. In Cardiff, for example, councillors in my constituency are every bit as keen to tackle that issue as my hon. Friend and myself.
No local authority will be given those freedoms and flexibilities if measuring their performance shows that they are not fulfilling their obligations in respect of litter and dog fouling, so there is no problem in that regard—the protection is built into the system. The Local Government Bill received its Second Reading in the House of Lords yesterday, and I am therefore very confident that those provisions will become law.
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