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7 Apr 2003 : Column 90—continued
7.44 pm
Mr. Alan Meale (Mansfield): First, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister, who presented a very good case. I am grateful to the Government for taking this action in supporting a private Member's Bill so as to pass legislation on this particularly important subject. I say that it is important not only because I have had to take up individual cases as an MP, especially in connection with the now infamous leylandii conifer tree, but because when I was at the Department I had to pick up the issue that had been cast aside by the previous Government, who said that nothing could be done in any way, shape or form to try to alleviate the problems connected with it. I am particularly grateful to my hon. Friend, who has worked assiduously to try to bring a resolution before the House and to encourage hon. Members to take it forward through a private Member's Bill.
In response to the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), I believe that the Bill refers to a height of 2 m because that was viewed as the maximum eye-line for vision outside one's downstairs window. It is as simple as that. That was the mechanism that was introduced to the argument by local design planners.
Mr. Hammond: I think that the hon. Gentleman will find that the 2 m limit is already present in planning legislation about fences and boundaries. However, it was not 2 m in pre-metric days—it was 6 ft, which is somewhat less than 2 m.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Perhaps we can now get back to discussing the additional costs to local authorities envisaged in the Bill.
Mr. Meale: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I support some of the arguments advanced by the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge about costs, which have been greatly underestimated. There is a reason for that. The figure of 20,000 is far below all the evidence that has been presented to previous Conservative Governments and, indeed, Labour Governments. There are thousands of these cases, especially concerning the more modern problem of the leylandii conifer. Local authorities know that it has been a problem in all matters connected with building land and local authority services for many years. We should not view this as something that has just arrived owing to the invention—in Britain, I may add—of a particular species of conifer tree. The conifer in question, which causes most of the despair among homeowners, is the leylandii conifer. Contrary to what has been suggested, it is not a foreign species from Canada, but a product from Wales that originated in the late 1800s. It has been around for a long time. I am pleased that the Government have managed to get out some sensible information to people who buy products that grow very quickly in their gardens, but my hon. Friend the Minister has realised that that is not nearly enough to deal with the scale of the problem that we face.
The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge talked about costs. The costings that have been put forward are greatly underestimated. For example, the estimate of costs to people who take up cases is extremely low, given that this is ultimately a planning matter that follows the normal lines in terms of the rights of appeal of both parties—that is, under normal circumstances large numbers of people will take that course, which will run up high costs. One of the reasons why local authorities are now tied down as to whether they accept planning applications or seek to overrule them is that under best value they must first face up to the district auditor. If someone receives a wrong decision, then wishes to take their appeal further, the local authority has to estimate whether it is likely to win, as with any insurance policy, and how much money it might subsequently lose. In those cases, the cost is usually between £12,000 and £14,000. If 20 per cent. of cases go to appeal and the backlog is between 10,000 and 20,000, the cost will be enormous. However, I know that my hon. Friend the Minister will deal with those matters in Committee.
I am also worried that not enough regard is being paid to the amount of money that will have to be made available for local authorities to make a case for funds when they have many cases with which to deal. I represent an urban authority that does not have many cases, and they can be dealt with under the procedure. However, the cost to a local authority in a rural community could be enormous. I hope that my hon. Friend will consider including in one of the new standard spending assessments the ability for local authorities that have a definite case to bid for funds. Money has been tweaked in the SSA to help local authorities to bid for extra money to deal with the problem of large areas of floodplains that have been built on so that they can do the work before a disaster occurs.
I welcome my hon. Friend's fine work. The measure is not before time. I am grateful to those members of the Opposition who have taken a great interest in the subject for their support in resolving the problem, which makes the lives of many thousands of people in Britain a misery.
7.51 pm
Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch): The hon. Member for Mansfield (Mr. Meale) makes two important points. The first is that the Bill will have a differing financial impact on different local authorities depending on whether they are urban, rural or suburban; yet the Government have proposed a standard distribution of grant through a standard formula that will not be proportionate to the needs of local authorities in implementing the legislation. The second is that the costs of appeal will be much more significant than the Government have so far recognised. The hon. Gentleman could have added that unlike ordinary planning appeals, either side will be able to appeal. If the local authority grants planning permission, there is nothing that people can do about it. They cannot appeal. However, if a local authority makes a decision, irrespective of what it is, on a hedge,
there will be a right of appeal and the proportion of appeals will increase, as my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) said.I spoke on the subject on Second Reading, although there was not much time for the Minister to respond to the debate. I hope that he will have a chance to respond this evening to the concerns and questions raised. Without repeating my hon. Friend's questions, I ask the Minister to spell out the fee structure that the Government have in mind for the complainants and what they will do about the concerns expressed on the differing impacts of the Bill on local authorities. I also hope that he answers the question that I raised on Second Reading about how East Dorset district council, which does not receive formula grant funding but only redistributed non-domestic rate, is to be reimbursed by the Government for the costs incurred as a result of implementing the provisions.
As a matter of common sense, I hope that the Minister accepts that it seems likely that there will be more than an average of fewer than 20 cases per English constituency, which is what 10,000 cases would amount to. If the Bill is as significant as some of its supporters suggest, the number of cases could be far higher than that.
I have one constructive suggestion. As the hon. Member for Mansfield said, there are precedents for the Government to reimburse the costs to local authorities on a specific basis. Some local authorities incur large sums in carrying out coastal protection work, which is refunded in whole or in part by the Government. Surely there is every reason why the scarce resources of the taxpayer that will be distributed by the Government to help to ease the burden of local authorities should be distributed to meet costs incurred rather than on a notional basis. Money distributed on a notional basis for concessionary fares resulted in grave injustices in both local authorities in my district, Christchurch borough council and East Dorset district council.
I hope that the Minister can respond constructively to those concerns so that the mood on the Standing Committee will be positive. He said that he does not necessarily believe in consensus, but if the Bill is to have the support of local authorities, the Government need to spell out clearly the basis on which the reimbursement of costs will be paid.
7.56 pm
Mrs. Annette L. Brooke (Mid-Dorset and North Poole): I support the Bill wholeheartedly and am pleased that the Government also support it. Like other hon. Members, I have some questions and think that aspects of it need scrutiny, especially if elderly or vulnerable people are unable to tend their hedges. We need to take care when we deal with that—
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I remind the hon. Lady to relate her comments not to the Bill, but to the money resolution.
Mrs. Brooke: I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I want to reiterate what has been said about the necessary finance for local authorities. That is important. I am in an unusual situation: instead of the finger being pointed at the Liberal Democrats for asking
for more resources, I am echoing and supporting the call by the Conservative party for that. There is a huge demand for action. Some cases are tragic and there are high expectations of local authorities. They need resources not only for the planning process itself, but to facilitate a good mediation process, which will take up staff time.There will be much work to do in the first few years before precedents have been set by appeal results. The process will be resource intensive, not just because of the number of applications, but because those precedents and guidelines will not have been established. It is important to have money up front and to make it clear to local authorities that they will have sufficient resources to carry out that work because they are already short of resources for essential enforcement action on, for example, planning conditions. I would hate one problem to be solved at the cost of a host of other problems in the community.
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