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14 Apr 2003 : Column 641—continued
Rev. Ian Paisley (North Antrim): The right hon. Gentleman will remember the 27th day of November last year, when he sat on that Bench beside the Prime Minister and I asked the Prime Minister whether we were going to depend on another statement, or a complete repudiation by the IRA of violence, its disbanding and its ceasing to declare war on the people of Northern Ireland. The Prime Minister was loud and clear in his response:
- "It is not merely a statement, a declaration of words. It means giving up violence completely in a way that satisfies everyone and gives them confidence".—[Official Report, 27 November 2002; Vol. 395, c. 309.]
Mr. Murphy: It is certainly not my intention to move the date of the election, which is on 29 May, and the Assembly will be dissolved on 28 April. As to legitimate aspirations, the hon. Gentleman will agree with me that any political party in Northern Ireland has aspirations that are legitimate—so long as they are pursued peacefully and democratically. A united Ireland is a perfectly legitimate aspiration; the continuation of being part of the United Kingdom is a legitimate aspiration. All such aspirations are legitimate, so long as they are peaceful and democratic.
So far as the Prime Minister's statement on 27 November is concerned, I entirely agree with that, as one would expect; indeed, I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree with it too, because it is important that, above all, we commit ourselves to peace.
Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock): What arrangements are being made for the Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights, which is based in Vienna and is monitoring Scots and Welsh elections, to monitor these elections as well?
I also invite the Secretary of State to consider this. We are acting as proxies. Where are our great allies and colleagues from the Social Democratic and Labour party on this critical occasion? If this issue is so vital for
Britain and Ireland, I should tell the Secretary of State that some of us are sick to the back teeth of turning up here when our colleagues who are supposed to represent the nationalist and republican interest do not. The Secretary of State needs to take back this message and spell it out in stark terms: they cannot pretend to be Labour Members of Parliament if they do not turn up on vital occasions such as this. We are sick and tired of it, and the sooner the Labour party organises in Northern Ireland, the better.
Mr. Murphy: I do not want to enter into that particular discussion today, but I will take back my hon. Friend's comments to SDLP Members of Parliament. So far as monitoring is concerned, that process applies throughout the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland.
Sir Brian Mawhinney (North-West Cambridgeshire): Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that he is right to continue to combine political flexibility with certainty and transparency? However, will he also recall that there would have been no agreement had the IRA not made commitments that were accepted by everybody else in good faith, and that it would not be acceptable for the IRA to continue to make similar promises each time around, extracting more concessions from all the other legitimate political parties and the people of Northern Ireland time and again? That is not the way forward in terms of peace and building confidence, or of security.
Mr. Murphy: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the agreement was founded on everybody who signed it playing their part in it, including parties that represent republicans, nationalists, loyalists, Unionists and others. Through his own experience as a native of, and as a Minister for, Northern Ireland, he understands these matters extremely well. But I repeat—as he has repeated—that at the end of the day, it is a matter of clarity and of transparency.
Mr. Tom Harris (Glasgow, Cathcart): Does my right hon. Friend agree that the complete cessation of violence and the complete surrender of all illegally held arms are not concessions but the basic minimum requirements expected of anyone involved in the democratic process? Does he also agree that any ambiguity on the part of the IRA on this point simply plays into the hands of those forces in Northern Ireland, democratic and undemocratic, that want the Belfast agreement to fail?
Mr. Murphy: I agree with my hon. Friend, who has played a significant role within the Labour party on these matters. He is absolutely right that what we are asking for is nothing exceptional, but something that the people of Northern Ireland themselves expect.
Peter Bottomley (Worthing, West): This is part of coming to terms with history, and the two Governments' co-operation follows the 18 years since the Anglo-Irish agreement. Can the Secretary of State say whether the overlapping leadership of Sinn Fein and the IRA—together with the leaders of the disloyalists, whose killings have marred the history of Northern Ireland just as much in the past 20 years or so—are
prepared to give up the chance of publicity and power by violence, and whether they will stop intimidating their own people, just as they threaten people on the other side of the divide?
Mr. Murphy: The hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to the communities in Northern Ireland that have been plagued by paramilitaries on both sides. That, unfortunately, continues, although to a lesser extent than it did. Until it ends—and it is an essential part of paramilitary activity, which must end—we will not have a peaceful Northern Ireland.
Mr. Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley): The Secretary of State will know that it is taking some time to drag these words from the IRA. Does that not tell us something about the IRA's real intentions—the fact that it is so reluctant to make a statement that is clear and offers certainty?
In May 2000, the IRA told us that it would deal with the arms issue in a manner that would maximise public confidence. Instead, it smuggled in further illegal weapons from Florida. The IRA speaks with forked tongue. Is it not time the Secretary of State recognised that? And—here I echo what was said by the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey)—is it not time he worked with the democratic parties to restore a proper democratic institution and administration to Northern Ireland? If the IRA is not prepared to move it must be left behind, and the rest of us must move forward without it.
Mr. Murphy: Certainly the IRA, and indeed all paramilitary groups, must recognise the changing times. I agree that there is no place in Northern Ireland for the activities in which they have engaged.
My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Mr. Browne), the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and I—and, indeed, the other Northern Ireland Ministers—constantly have discussions with the democratic parties about the way ahead, and will continue to do so. At the end of the day, however, the people of Northern Ireland themselves will decide how they are to be represented when the elections happen.
Mr. Andrew Hunter (Basingstoke): Will the Secretary of State comment on the very strong feeling in Northern Ireland that no further concessions should be made to the IRA in advance of its disbanding and decommissioning totally? Will he also comment on the feeling that the package that is understood to be on offer is an affront both to the principles and practices of democracy and to the rule of law?
Mr. Murphy: The hon. Gentleman must wait until he has an opportunity to see the proposals of the joint declaration. Some—I have indicated what they might be on a number of occasions during Question Time—were indeed linked to further progress on the issue of paramilitarism. Others constituted part of the implementation of the Good Friday Belfast agreement, and we must continue with them. They relate to issues such as human rights and equality.
Angela Watkinson (Upminster): At this year's annual Sinn Fein conference, the president demanded further
extensive reforms to policing in Northern Ireland. We already have a 50:50 recruitment procedure, which is restricting recruitment because there are not enough Catholic applicants to match the Protestant applicants. Similarly, if a Catholic trainee drops out halfway through the course, a Protestant must be dropped as well. What further concessions or reforms can possibly be made if the trust and confidence of the people in Northern Ireland are not to be destroyed?
Mr. Murphy: As the hon. Lady will know, the Police (Northern Ireland) Act was given Royal Assent only last week. It made a number of changes to the running of the police force in Northern Ireland, including the workings of the Policing Board. I understand the issues raised by the hon. Lady, which are a subject for debate here on another occasion, but what impresses me is the phenomenal transformation of the police, enabling them to represent everyone who lives in Northern Ireland. When I returned there after a gap of three years, those changes in the police were the most significant that I saw.
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