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Matthew Taylor (Truro and St. Austell): The Minister keeps saying that things are going as planned, yet my constituents could not get through on the phone and are not getting the payments that they need to pay their bills. Contrary to what the right hon. Lady has just said, not 5 million but 4 million are either getting payment or, in her words are "about to receive" it. How many of our constituents have heard those words as they try to pursue the payments that they need to pay their bills?
Is it not a fact that 1 million have not claimed—twice as many as the Government said—or is that now "as planned"? Is it not the case that 1 million at least are not expected to receive payment for some time to come—that is the real admission in today's statement which the Minister glossed over—or was that "as planned"? Although the Department now likes to blame our constituents for not getting their applications in by 31 January, is it not the case that 300,000 people who met the timetable have not got their money? In any case, where in the prominent advertising did it say that people had to get their claims in by 31 January? The advertising material—it was the main warning of what people had to do—did not feature that information with any prominence.
Ministers are now struggling with the problem. Are they at least prioritising? Do they have a system in place to enable them to prioritise those who are most needy and still missing out?
Will the Minister explain why she has failed to give us any figures on the working tax credit? Is it true, as rumoured, that that system has been a total disaster, with almost no take-up? Will the Minister give us the figures? She clearly knows them because she has disaggregated the child credit claim figures.
What lessons will the Minister draw from this fiasco for the pension credit that is now coming down the line? What will the Government do to make that simple? We still have no claim form. We have no idea of the notes that will be involved. We know that Ministers are already banking on 1 million pensioners failing to claim
even though they are entitled to do so. That is because they find the forms too difficult to complete or they find it too demeaning to go through the means-tested process. Is it not time that Ministers admitted that the system is too complicated, that pension credit should be abandoned and that pensioners instead should be given decent pension increases, especially elderly pensioners who experience the most difficulty in completing the forms but are in most need of the money?Does the Minister regret not accepting the proposal that was made by Liberal Democrat Members in Committee that the existing benefit book system should be allowed to continue after 1 April where payments for credits have not been processed, which Ministers said at the time was unnecessary? They were clearly wrong.
Dawn Primarolo: I do not regret never taking the advice of the Liberal Democrats. Had I done so in this instance, the 3.2 million people in receipt of or about to be paid their child tax credit or working tax credit would not have the increased payments. The popularity of the scheme is clear. Four million claims have been received and tens of thousands of claims are coming in every day.
There is not a missing million. I shall try to explain it again: 5.75 million families are able to benefit and 4 million claims have already been received. We must add to that the 1.3 million who are on income support or JSA. There is not a missing million.
The hon. Gentleman asked specifically about claims that are coming in now, and about prioritisation. I can confirm that as we receive claims we are prioritising those who wish to have their payments made weekly, and trying to get that money to them as quickly as possible. Secondly, we are prioritising those who have previously been on working families tax credit or disabled persons tax credit. As I have said, by next week the Inland Revenue expects to have processed the claims that it had received as of last Friday. Payments will be made to the families unless there are outstanding inquiries relating to the details on the form.
Given the huge take-up, I fail to understand how any reasonable person in the Chamber could say that take-up has not been a success.
Mr. Kevan Jones (North Durham): I welcome my right hon. Friend's statement, but does she recognise that the failures of the system have caused real hardship for many of my constituents, such as Mr. and Mrs. Russ Jones of Sacristow, County Durham, who wrote:
- "We rely on this money on a day to day basis."
- "Yesterday was my son's birthday. I had the heart-breaking task to tell him that we were not able to buy him a gift."
Dawn Primarolo: Of course I apologise unreservedly to my hon. Friend and his constituents, and to the other hon. Members who have indicated that similar circumstances have been brought to their notice. I reiterate that the Inland Revenue can and should be making an interim payment in such cases. Of course, as my hon. Friend says, we need to consider this matter urgently. I take note of his point about compensation, and I will come back to him on the specific case.
Mr. Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe): First, I thank the Paymaster General for the part that I am sure she played in getting an emergency payment to the constituent whose case I raised during the Budget debate. I hope to discover that that has happened to my other constituents. However, the right hon. Lady has obviously come to the House today in order to carry the can and, whatever else she does, to refuse to give any figure for the hundreds of thousands of people who have already failed to receive payments on which they were relying. She will have to give that figure in due course. I accept as a pretty good guess the figure of 300,000 that appeared in the newspapers this morning.
Was not the scandal totally predictable, and was it not predicted by all those who said that it would take a very long time to turn the Inland Revenue into a department capable of paying out money as well as collecting it, and in particular paying it out weekly, on the day, to millions of people relying on it—as compared with the pace that the Inland Revenue is understandably used to adopting in respect of tax claims and tax payments by wealthier people? Will the Paymaster General give the advice to the Chancellor of the Exchequer which she may already have had the courage to give him from time to time—that he should stop introducing ever more complicated and bureaucratic changes to the tax and benefits system, changing and reinventing them and running far beyond the pace of the right hon. Lady's and the Inland Revenue's ability to deliver those on the ground to people for whom not getting the money is a disaster?
Dawn Primarolo: The right hon. and learned Gentleman and I have discussed the matter outside the Chamber. I say again to him that he is wrong when he asserts that the Inland Revenue is not capable of making those payments. Clearly, the 1 million weekly payments that are already being made, for the fourth week in many cases, demonstrate that the Inland Revenue is capable. The 2 million people about to be paid, who requested four-weekly payments, demonstrate that as well. The tax credits system, as is shown by the millions who have applied for it, supports families, is wanted by them and gets money to them when they need it. The Inland Revenue will continue to make sure that it delivers those priorities.
Geraint Davies (Croydon, Central): I welcome the fact that eligibility extends up to £58,000 for the household. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the 8 per cent. of people who have not claimed tend to be clustered at the higher end of the pay range? She should continue to focus on take-up at the lower levels of pay, where there
is much higher eligibility and greater need. When she does the calculations to show the amount of money that is not taken up, as opposed to the number of people who are not taking it up, the picture will be even rosier.
Dawn Primarolo: I cannot confirm the analysis that my hon. Friend suggests, but I can tell him that tens of thousands of claims continue to be received by the Inland Revenue, in addition to the 4 million already received. That does not indicate to me or, I think, to any reasonable person that the system is not well known about, well supported and desperately needed by families.
Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham): Will the Paymaster General confirm that her figures, and the Government's figures generally, show clearly that more than a million people who are eligible to claim have not yet claimed and are not sure when they will, and that on her own admission today, another million people have claimed and cannot get the money paid on time? Is that not a disgrace? What does she intend to do about it, and will she say sorry?
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