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8.45 pm
I am extremely worried—as I imagine you are, Mr. Deputy Speaker—that Acts of Parliament could override Standing Orders. One could think of almost any Standing Order offhand that could be overridden simply by an Act. That could relate to the Consolidated Fund or whether the privileges of the House had been breached. The Government could override Standing Orders by using their large majority to provide that they would no longer apply or not apply in a specific context. I hope that you would regard that as a matter of gravity and take soundings on it, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I hope that you will be good enough to note what I say and perhaps let me have your view on the extent to which the unprecedented provision is in the framework of the constitutional treatment of Standing Orders.
I am effectively making a point of order, but the irony is that I do not have to make a point of order because I am talking about the Bill. That is pretty odd and I would be grateful if a person in your Office, Mr. Deputy Speaker, or one of the Clerks would tell me the extent to which the provision is precedented. However, we need not divide the House on the matter. It is important but it can be allowed to mature through correspondence in due course. It will be interesting to hear the Minister's reply, and perhaps her advisers will give her a note so that we may have further elucidation.
Mr. Heath: One could reach two assumptions: either the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has taken careful cognisance of remarks made in Committee and on Report and has been persuaded by the arguments of the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) and me, or the points that we made
were so self-evidently correct that it could do nothing but agree. Whichever is true, we are glad that it made its recommendations and that the Lord Chancellor has acceded to them.I was simply going to concur with the hon. Gentleman's sentiments and the Lords amendments, but he made a small peroration on hybridity. I was desperately worried that he would be out of order by doing that because the amendments do not relate to it. However, I realised, as you would, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that clause 12(8) qualifies the rest of the clause and therefore qualifies the amendments that we are debating. The hon. Gentleman was clearly in order to express his concerns about the Humpty-Dumpty provision in subsection (8) that will allow the Government to decide what any word shall mean. If they choose to decide that a word means the opposite of what it clearly does mean, they will legislate for it to mean the opposite. That is the purport of subsection (8).
Mr. Cash: The hon. Gentleman will recall, having echoed "Through the Looking-Glass", that the final phrase following the question about the meaning of words is
- "which is to be master—that's all."
I do not wish to pursue that line of debate any further except to say that it raises questions about the procedures of this place. I do not think that the Government have successfully dealt with the salient points raised by the hon. Member for Stone. However, they are not the subject of the amendments, with which we agree and which we asked for in Committee, although they were apparently tabled as a result of the intervention of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and not as a result of any arguments from our good selves that may have struck home. None the less, we must modestly accept the procedure by which we have achieved our result and welcome the amendments.
Yvette Cooper: I should like to deal first with the points made by the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) about hybridity, which we discussed previously in the House. He pressed to a Division amendments relating to the issue, but they were not accepted. The issue is not the subject of the amendments before us and was not raised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee.
The hon. Gentleman asked about precedents. Section 26 of the Local Government Act 1992 is a precedent and contains a similar measure. Clearly, he did not manage to do to that measure what he managed to do to the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Act 1977, although I guess that it was not for want of trying to sabotage his Government's measures in one way or another at that time.
Hon. Members asked further questions about the delayed procedure. One aspect of the procedure is that it would allow orders to be made during a recess when there is an important need for electoral administrators or others to get on with the work in question. Parliament would then debate the matter afterwards.
The provisions are sensible measures that allow us to do what many hon. Members and the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee have asked for and give greater parliamentary scrutiny to the issues involved. They also ensure that we can meet the timetable. We need to do so to ensure that those who live in Gibraltar can vote in the European parliamentary elections in June next year.
I welcome what I think was support for the amendments from the hon. Member for Stone, as well as the support of the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath). I assume that the hon. Member for Stone is still planning to vote against them, as he has previously argued that orders should be more clearly limited to treaty provisions and to debates in the House, but then proceeded to vote against provisions that achieve exactly that. He has also argued that we should conduct more consultation with the Government of Gibraltar and do more to address and respond to their concerns, but he voted this afternoon against provisions that do exactly that. I presume that the fact that he expressed support for the amendments means that he will proceed to vote against them.
Mr. Cash: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Yvette Cooper: I shall give the hon. Gentleman one last chance to clarify his position.
Mr. Cash: The issue is very simple. The Government have moved somewhat in our direction under the intense pressure that we exerted both in Committee and on Report, and also thanks to our noble Friends in the House of Lords. We have made progress, and Liberal Democrat Members have also contributed to the pressures exerted on the Government in that respect, as have the Chief Minister and others in Gibraltar who have played such a magnificent part in the proceedings. However, this has been only a partial success and it is not over yet by a long way.
Yvette Cooper: One has to question the logic of the hon. Gentleman's position if he can describe an amendment as progress, then choose to vote against it to try to defeat it. Presumably he would rather we ditch all the so-called progress and return to the Bill as it was when it left this place, despite his anxieties about it at that time. I know that he is always keen to vote against progress whenever he can, but I urge him not to vote against the progress made in this final group of amendments. I ask him to join hon. Members from other parties to ensure that the whole House supports not only the amendments, but the whole Bill. It is a good Bill that extends democracy, and it is right that we should wish it well so as not only to include the accession states in the 2004 elections, but to extend the franchise to the people of Gibraltar.
Lords amendments Nos. 6 to 14, 15 and Government amendment (a) thereto agreed to.
Lords amendments Nos. 16 to 20 agreed to [one with Special Entry].
National Minimum Wage (Enforcement Notices) Bill [Lords]
As amended in the Standing Committee, considered.
8.59 pm
The Minister for E-Commerce and Competitiveness (Mr. Stephen Timms): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
On behalf of my hon. Friend the Minister for Employment Relations, Industry and the Regions, I thank all those who have taken part in the debates in the House and in the other place since last November. The Bill is small but complex, and has received much all-party support, for which I am grateful. I am sure that the many former workers who stand to benefit from the measure are grateful for the support that has been expressed in the House and in another place.
My hon. Friend dealt with the detail and the technical issues on Second Reading. I do not propose to cover them again. The network of 16 enforcement teams throughout the United Kingdom, operated by the Inland Revenue, will be able to carry on as they did before the Bebb Travel case arose, and thus resume helping some of the most vulnerable workers to obtain their legal entitlement under the minimum wage. As hon. Members know, the Court of Appeal heard the Inland Revenue's appeal in the Bebb Travel case on 24 March. It agreed with the Employment Appeal Tribunal and ruled against the Inland Revenue. It is just as well that we did not depend on the appeal. We want to close the loophole in the way that every hon. Member supports through the Bill.
I emphasise the importance of the measure, in case there are lingering doubts. It is an important part of the Government's employment relations strategy, which aims to promote partnership, encourage greater adaptability and provide good minimum standards of fairness at work for all. The minimum wage is firmly established as a feature of the United Kingdom labour market.
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