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Mr. Hammond: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Davey: I shall give way in a moment. No doubt the hon. Gentleman wants to quote from Lord Waddington's remarks later in that debate when, having realised that he should not be engaging his brain but donning his party colours, he went back on his earlier statements. Does the hon. Gentleman still want to intervene?
Mr. Hammond: The hon. Gentleman generally runs a commendable campaign against selective quotation. However, later in the same debate, Lord Waddington said:
- "My Lords, will the noble Lord accept that I stand condemned of the most appalling naivety? I had not the slightest idea of all the comings and goings between the Liberal Front Bench and the Government. If I had known more about that, I would have thought twice before speaking."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 7 April 2003; Vol. 647, c. 26.]
Mr. Davey: The hon. Gentleman should stop digging. As soon as Lord Waddington had been nobbled by his Whips, he decided to resile from the position that he had put on the record, not once but twice, supporting the compromise. The hon. Gentleman should be careful.
I shall set out the options that were open to us once we had accepted the constraint that the Government would not allow decoupling. We thought long and hard about how to empower local communities and get round some of the problems involved in the Government's intention to push the enforced coupling of the two issues.
There were four alternatives. The first was that people in the areas that had experienced local government reform should vote on one option proposed by the boundary committee for England. If the majority voted no, another solution would be imposed. That idea was batted about. We did not like it because eventually it could have led to an imposed solution.
Secondly, if the option proposed by the boundary committee was rejected in a vote, a further solution could be put to a referendum; there would be a second ballot. We had more sympathy with that proposal, but it could have meant an expensive and time-consuming series of ballots, so there were some disadvantages.
Thirdly, if the proposed option was rejected in a vote, the elected regional assembly would decide on the reform of local government in its area. Again, we had some sympathy with the proposal, but there could have been practical problems, especially in the first wave of regional referendums. The powers would not have been enacted and it would have been some time before the first regional assemblies were elected, so there could have been instability in local government. We spent some time exploring that option, although it was not practical.
Having rejected three possibilities, we ended up with the proposal that we are discussing today: that the boundary committee should be required to produce at least two options for local government reorganisation, which should be put to the ballot. That seems the best possible solution, given the constraint imposed by No. 10 that there will be no decoupling. It is important for the House to realise that careful negotiations were undertaken and that we thought long and hard about the solution that we are discussing: it is the best one possible.
The proposal has four benefits. First, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed pointed out, only those voters affected by local government reorganisation will be able to vote. In other words, those outside the area affected will not be able to vote. That is important, and it deals with a damaging part of the Government's original proposals, which we strongly opposed. My right hon. Friend put a strong argument against them.
The second benefit is that there will be a vote. As we have already heard, under the previous Conservative Government there was no vote on whether unitary government should be established. People in the areas affected were given no choice; they had no democratic voice. The proposal is thus a major step forward. It is worth emphasising that this is the first time in the history of this country that local people will have the chance to vote on the form of local government in their area. That concession was wrung not only from Ministers but from Whitehall. It is the sort of thing that Whitehall does not like, so it is a major achievement for the whole House as a democratic body.
The third benefit is that there will be a real choice, not merely a take-it-or-leave-it. There could be as many as four options, one of which could even be that the unitary authority was a county council. The key point is that voters will have a choice.
Mr. Hammond: May I ask the hon. Gentleman the question that I put to the Minister earlier? How does the hon. Gentleman envisage the boundary committee being directed? It is possible that the four choices would be merely nuances of each other, so does he envisage radically different choices being put to the electorate?
Mr. Davey: The boundary committee must make the recommendations that it deems best. It would be odd,
however, if the committee came up with two or three very similar proposals. I am sure that the committee will take note of the arguments that have been made in this place and will want to give people real choice, so presumably there will be real differences between the options that it proposes.The fourth benefit, on which I am sure that the Conservatives will not agree, is that the compromise solution will produce a much better chance of wining the referendums on regional assemblies. There was real concern that those devolutionists who wanted regional government would have to vote against it because they disliked the local government reform tied to it. That was a problem, and it put those people in all political parties who argued for regional devolution in an almost impossible position. This solution gets us out of that problem and takes away an argument from some parties and people who are against regional devolution, so there are some real benefits.
The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge said that that solution is the only thing that had been won in this package. I can tell him that it is not: we shall come to some of the other issues later, but I shall just list them for him now. First, in the Government's original proposals, the boundaries of existing unitary authorities in various regions could not have been touched, even though it would have made sense to merge, for example, an adjacent district council with the existing unitary authority, but we have managed to persuade the Government to change their mind. That is very welcome, as it will allow an existing district to join an existing unitary authority where doing so makes sense because of local government boundaries. That is a common-sense, practical solution to a fundamental problem with the Government's original proposals.
We have also persuaded the Government that they should use their best endeavours to publish a draft Bill before the first referendum. That is a significant victory. I accept that that is not in the Bill, but the Government are on record to that effect, having been previously opposed to that solution. [Interruption.] The Minister says that they were not opposed to it, and I do not have the Hansard reference.
3.30 pm
Mr. Raynsford: We were never opposed to that. We always made it clear that we saw merit in the possibility of publishing a draft Bill, but we were concerned about the timetable implications. We will use our very best endeavours to ensure that a draft Bill is published before a referendum, so that people have the opportunity to see it, but the timetable implications remain the prime concern. That was the only reason why we were not previously prepared to commit to doing so.
Mr. Davey: Right hon. and hon. Members may think that a nuanced shift, but it is still an important shift. When we argued with the Government, they did not seem that keen on the idea; they seemed not to want to be constrained or to make promises on the record. The Government have shifted, and I certainly take the Minister's good will in our discussions as a sign that they will try extremely hard to ensure that that Bill is
published before the first referendum. That is very important to ensure that people have the right information on which to vote—in other words, the details of what regional assemblies will be able to do—and that the House has a chance to start pre-legislative scrutiny and to try to argue for more powers for regional assemblies.One of our problems with the Government's package of regional devolution proposals is that it does not pass enough power from Whitehall to the regional assemblies, but a draft Bill will allow us to begin to engage in that debate to ensure that more regional devolution takes place.
I was also very pleased when one of the Minister's colleagues in the Lords confirmed in an parliamentary answer to the Earl of Caithness that
- "the Government are keen further to decentralise responsibility for policy and delivery where this will improve regional outcomes. There are likely to be further proposals for the decentralisation of responsibilities to elected regional assemblies as time goes on."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 25 March 2003; Vol. 646, c. WA67.]
The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge specifically mentioned regional boundaries, and it is worth commenting on that because my hon. Friends and I were concerned when we previously debated the Bill that there was no review of regional boundaries, and we still have that concern. I predict that, when the Government have gone ahead, as I hope that they will, with referendums on regional assemblies in the three northern regions—the north-west, north-east and Yorkshire and Humberside—they will embark on a review of regional boundaries elsewhere in England.
We will argue for such a review, especially when the powers Bill is introduced in the House. We have not given up on that point at all; we will be campaigning very hard. The logic of the politics is that there must be more regions in the rest of England outside the three northern areas. Neither I nor my hon. Friends believe that the current regional boundaries for areas, such as the south-west or south-east, make sense. They need to be reviewed, and we will press for that. I believe that a referendum could not or, indeed, should not be won until the regional boundaries have been reviewed.
This set of Lords amendments makes a major improvement to the Bill. I am proud to be involved, with many others, in securing the amendments. The Government were persuaded by argument, which is an example of this House working at its best. I commend the amendments to the House.
I shall end on this point: the Conservatives, who do not want to vote against the amendments, should at least confess that they do not want to give people choice. Not only are they against regional government; they are against giving people the choice of regional government. Not only are they against local government
reorganisation; they are against giving people the choice of local government reorganisation. From being the party of choice, they have got themselves into a sorry state.
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