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Mr. Kevan Jones: I, too, welcome Lords amendment No. 3, as it will give my constituents in North Durham a say not only in a tier of regional government but in their local government structures, which, as we have heard previously, they have been denied in the past.
I know that my right hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, East and Washington, West (Joyce Quin) is a passionate advocate of regional government, which is a passion that I share. We disagree, however, about reorganisation of local government. I have always argued that having a tier of regional government necessitates a review of local government. The reason is that I do not accept that voters in any area will vote for more politicians or an extra tier of government on top of what already exists. A clear case exists that Durham is currently over-represented in local government. In the seven parliamentary constituencies that cover Durham, we have 421 councillors: an average of 60 councillors per constituency. The neighbouring area of Tyne and Wear has 13 parliamentary constituencies and 339 councillors: an average of 26 per constituency. It would be difficult to argue to the electorate that putting another tier of regional government on top of that would be efficient.
There is also an opportunity to address some of the disparities that already exist in local government in County Durham.
Joyce Quin: Perhaps I can make my position clear. Certainly, we should not rule out considering the numbers involved in local government at present, or those in the House of Commons, in terms of the modernisation of our democracy. However, in terms of the immediate issue, I was simply not keen on the link being drawn between local government and regional government. Some of my hon. Friend's points, however, are very worthy of consideration.
Mr. Jones: I am grateful for that clarification. This is an opportunity to address some of those issues.
As I said, I do not think that the electorate will vote for more politicians. In Committee, the hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) described what the Minister referred to as the Liberal Valhalla, in which the electorate would come forward with great gusto to vote for more councillors and more local representatives. I simply do not think that that is the case.
We have heard again this afternoon, as we heard in Committee, that this Bill means the end of county councils. I do not think so. In County Durham, a strong case exists that the county area should be that of the new unitary authority—at present, it spends 80 per cent. of the local government budget in the county—and I shall argue strongly for the new unitary authority in that regard. Currently, the two-tier system does not work, it is inefficient, and I simply do not accept the idea that local people somehow identify closely with Derwentside or Chester-le-Street district councils as bodies for which they will do or die.
We are now at an historic moment in the development of regional policy in this country. People in the north-east have waited a long time for a chance to vote for and
elect a democratically elected tier of regional government, which will make a great difference not just in terms of ensuring that their voices are heard nationally, but in giving them a sense that their identity, about which they all feel strongly, is recognised, as is the case in other parts of the nation.The amendment is sensible. As the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) said, it will provide an opportunity for the Bill to get through. Over many years, the Conservatives made deals in this House and the other place to ensure that legislation got through, and this sensible amendment will be welcomed in County Durham.
Mr. Peter Atkinson: I agree with one thing that the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) said. If we are going to go down the line of regional government, we must lose a tier of local government. That is one of the reasons why I am fundamentally opposed to the whole idea of regional government.
There is something worrying about a handful of MPs sitting in the Chamber on the eve of an important local government poll discussing the minutiae of a Bill that, as we have been reminded by the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey), No. 10 does not even want. It has resisted it, and the fact that we are debating it today is a sop to the Deputy Prime Minister. If we were not here but instead campaigning for the local government elections, we would find that no one was raising the issue of regional assemblies on the doorsteps. People are concerned about their council taxes escalating and local schools facing a funding crisis. Those issues concern the electorate—not this sophisticated argument about changing the local government structure of the regions.
I remind the House of the answer that I received from the Minister of State when I asked him about the level of interest in regional government in the north-east. He told me that, by the 3 March deadline—I appreciate that it has been extended—there had been only 4,500 responses from the whole of England and Wales, of which 300 were from the north-east. To argue, as the Minister did, that those 300 people are somehow all representative of huge organisations and bring with them a block vote to the debate is, I regret to say, arrant nonsense. The people of the north-east do not want an assembly; they could not care less about it. Even the polls conducted by the Journal newspaper, which we all know is an absolute enthusiast for regional government, show that the majority of people that it questioned—we never knew the size of the sample—were against the idea of regional government.
Mr. Kevan Jones: I agree that if we hold a referendum in the north-east it will be a big job to convince people to vote in favour of an assembly. Will the hon. Gentleman say today whether he and the Conservative party in the north-east will campaign for a no vote in that referendum?
Mr. Atkinson: I cannot speak for the entire party in the north-east, but I shall certainly campaign against a regional assembly. I do not want local government in my authority of Northumberland to be smashed up, but that is exactly what would happen. It is true that, perhaps in Northumberland as well as Durham, it may well be that the county survives and the districts die.
The problem with Northumberland is that it has a population of 300,000 compared with populations of nearly 2 million in Essex and Kent. It is a tiny number in a large landmass that is currently served by six district councils. It would be a very difficult for the boundary committee to decide to have a number of unitary districts with a total population of 300,000. Therefore, it would tend to go for a unitary county, but there is a huge disadvantage with that.
Mr. Atkinson: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman wants to intervene on this point. The huge disadvantage of a unitary county is that the whole of Northumberland would be run from the centre, which is many miles away from the people of Berwick, Haltwhistle or the west of my constituency.
Mr. Beith: I am grateful to my neighbour for giving way. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that he would prefer to keep the present system in which most local government decisions in Northumberland are taken by Northumberland county council, dominated, as it is, by the urban south-east? Would he prefer the continuance of that to, for example, a unitary authority based on the boundaries of his constituency, which would be a substantial area and similar in number to some existing unitary authorities?
Mr. Atkinson: At the time of the last proposed reorganisation of local government, I was certainly in favour of dividing Northumberland into three unitary authorities if that was the option for change. However, it became clear that the boundary commission would not have that. It was pointing to a very out-of-touch unitary county.
3.45 pm
The real purpose of my remarks is to ask the Minister to flesh out one or two additional pieces of information about who may vote. It is curious that I am still learning more about this complex Bill at the eleventh hour. I did not serve on the Committee, so I apologise if I have got this wrong, but I think that the Minister talked about the Morecambe Bay option, meaning that the boundary committee could move part of an existing unitary authority into an area currently covered by a two-tier authority. I shall give an example from the north-east. I have explained that the county of Northumberland has a small population and a large area. It is hypothetically possible that the boundary committee could decide to create two unitary authorities and return the area covered by the old county borough of Tynemouth back to Northumberland to boost its population, which would be highly popular.
Mr. Raynsford indicated dissent.
Mr. Atkinson: The Minister does not think that that will happen, but if it did, would the people living in the area covered by the old county borough of Tynemouth be able to vote in the local government referendum? If
that were the case, it would introduce a new and interesting aspect to the Bill. Will he confirm that the boundary committee could include part of Tynemouth in a part-Northumberland unitary authority? That would allow us to reopen the argument of whether people living in unitary authorities could be moved into a different area, even if they could not vote on that.I am not sure whether that was clear. During these debates, one always has the choice of staying in the Chamber or going to lunch. I decided to stay, although I am not sure whether that was a good idea because I am probably more confused now than I was when the debate started. I hope that the Minister will address the problem in his winding-up speech.
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