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Mr. Don Foster: Until a few months ago, before I went off to play with trains, boats and planes as the Liberal Democrats' transport spokesman, I had responsibilities for these matters. I must confess that when my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) took over those responsibilities, I was feeling fairly depressed about progress on the development of regional government in England. I am delighted to say that I feel far more optimistic than I did then, which is largely due to my hon. Friend's endeavours. I congratulate him on his work.
It has been said on several occasions, not least by the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), that Liberal Democrats have long argued the clear principle that issues relating to regional government should be decoupled from those relating to local government. I still believe, as do my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton and my colleagues in another place, that that would represent the right way forward. It is almost incomprehensible that the Government are not prepared to accept arguments for such decoupling.
I do not accept that the establishment of regional government, for which my party has argued for a long time, would add an additional tier of governance in England. We already have a tier of regional governance. There are many unelected quangos that spend billions of pounds in our regions, have a huge associated bureaucracy and cost a great deal. The establishment of directly elected regional government in each of the regions would provide the opportunity not only to reduce cost and bureaucracy, but to allow much more joined-up thinking than may occur through the work of those separate quangos. We would also fill the democratic deficit that exists because people would be elected to represent local people and determine how money that is intended to help them should be spent.
Mr. Hammond: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that despite the Government's protestations, they are imposing an additional tier of government on many parts of the country that are already under unitary local government?
Mr. Foster: One important principle that the Liberal Democrats and I hold is that decisions on the number and arrangement of tiers is best made by the people whom the tiers serve. I have always rejected the argument that central Government should impose such decisions on local people. I deeply regret the way in
which Conservative Administrations imposed rearrangements of local government on local people without those people voting on the proposals.
Mr. Swire: Given that the hon. Gentleman is worried about the number of quangos that handle so much money and would prefer regional government of one sort or another, does he agree that if a region votes against an elected regional government, the unelected regional assembly in that area should cease to exist?
Mr. Foster: No, I do not. If a directly elected regional assembly is not supported, there is merit in considering ways to integrate some of the different quangos and allowing the unelected assembly, which represents many groups, to have greater powers of scrutiny of those quangos and the RDAs. The representative assemblies were a good move and are welcome.
I had hoped that the hon. Gentleman would argue that my support for regional government and the suggestion that it would sweep away those quangos was a fanciful thought because the Government's proposals will not achieve that as they stand. In that context, it was encouraging to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton stress that the Government's answer in another place reflects their willingness to address and enhance the powers that the directly elected regional governments will have. Hopefully, they will be responsible for more quangos. I welcome that and look forward to hearing the Minister assure us that that will be the case.
Given that there is no obvious correlation between the roles of regional government and local government, there is no need to link them in the way that the Government initially proposed. They should be treated separately. If there is a case to reorganise local government in an area, it might be appropriate to discuss that, but that should not be linked to the establishment of regional government, which is, after all, about democratising a tier of governance that we already have. Nevertheless, it was made clear—not least by the intransigence of No. 10 Downing street—that the Government would not adopt that approach, so it was sensible to find a compromise.
My noble Friend Baroness Greaves was mentioned in the context of the Liberal Democrats being blackmailed on the issue. I have much respect for my noble Friend—
Mr. Hammond: I accept that the hon. Gentleman has a great deal of respect for his noble Friend, but he obviously does not know who his friend is because he is, in fact, Baron Greaves.
Mr. Foster: I think that we are both wrong.
Lord Greaves, better known to his friends as Tony—I count myself as one of his friends—was wrong. If blackmail were involved, it was the other way around, admirably organised by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton. The Government, and in particular the Minister, knew that without such a compromise the Bill would be lost for the very reasons set out by the hon. Member for Runnymede and
Weybridge. They had a great deal riding on this and if anyone could be accused of blackmail it is my hon. Friend.
Mr. Edward Davey: I can confirm that that was our position. We agreed as a team that we would have to kill the Bill if the Government did not give way. We did not want to do that, but we were prepared to act in that way.
Mr. Foster: I am grateful for confirmation of what I assumed to have been the case. As a result of that, my hon. Friend was able to wring from the Minister a number of concessions, which he has outlined. It seems that at the last minute several people were wringing concessions out of the Minister—even his noble Friends on the Front Bench in another place. I note that Lord Rooker, speaking at 3.30 pm two days ago in response to Baroness Hanham, having been told that he was being rather curmudgeonly on that occasion, said:
- "My Lords, I am cheesed off, having been ultra friendly and having wrung an extra little concession out of my right honourable friend Nick Raynsford as late as twenty past two this afternoon."—[Official Report, House of Lords, 28 April 2003; Vol. 647, c. 457.]
I am delighted that it was as a result of Liberal Democrats that the major concessions were obtained. Those are major concessions. They might not have been what we wanted, but it is important that if the local government decision was to be linked with the regional government referendum, local people would have a choice. It was important that it was only local people affected by that decision who would be involved in making the decision.
During an earlier exchange we saw the difficulties of linking the two. It is still not clear to me whether it will be possible for a group of people in one local government area effectively to hold to ransom the entire region. We have not had a clear answer from the Minister in that regard, but no doubt in the course of proceedings today he will get further little notes that will provide a clearer answer to the question. That may even result in our having wrung a further concession out of him. The important thing is to adopt the advice offered by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith), that where there is a need for a second vote on the local government issue, there should still be plenty of opportunity for the regional arrangements to continue before a final decision is made, and the proceedings should not be held up.
In grown-up politics we should end the Punch and Judy approach. Where there is a greater goal—in this case, the introduction of powerful, democratically elected regional government—it is sometimes necessary to make compromises. The proposals today offer a much greater likelihood of the advent of regional government. I am delighted not only that the amendments are part of that compromise, but that there is more in the pipeline, such as the discussion about improving the powers of regional government.
As I no longer have responsibility for these matters on behalf of my party, I am no longer in a need-to-know position, but I noted with considerable interest the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and
Surbiton when he assured the House that he was confident that after the first three referendums took place, there would be a reconsideration of the boundaries. On what basis he gave us that assurance I know not, but he is in a need-to-know position and I am not. I welcome that further concession, if that is what it is.In conclusion, regional government is long overdue. I am delighted that by agreeing the amendments and the compromise today, as I hope the House will, apparently without a Division, we are moving forward the cause of regional government rather more rapidly than I thought possible just a few months ago.
Mr. Beith: The area that I represent will be directly affected by the Bill and the amendments. It is an area in which many people believe that we ought to have more decisions made closer to home, in the north-east rather than in London, just as, when we look across the border, we see that Scots are able to have decisions made in Edinburgh rather than in London. It is also an area in which many people would have been faced with a difficult choice if they had been told that in order to have a regional assembly, they had to accept one and only one possibility for unitary local government. Further, they were being told that they would not decide that issue, although they would be casting a vote on whether to have a regional assembly. The far greater numbers of people in unitary areas, who need not be influenced by this point at all because it would not affect them, would, by voting for a regional assembly, determine that the minority of areas got that change in the local government structure.
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