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Mr. Raynsford: We have had a thorough and detailed debate covering many issues. I shall try to be as brief as possible while doing justice to hon. Members' contributions and responding to the questions that were put to me.
The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) revealed the real motivation for his response to the Bill in its current form—namely, pique that his hope of wrecking the Bill has been frustrated. Ultimately, what Conservative Members have tried to do throughout its passage is to deny people the chance of an elected regional assembly in those regions that want one. That is, of course, entirely consistent with Conservative policy. They opposed devolution to Scotland, to Wales and to London. They were defeated on every one of those occasions, and they are now opposing devolution to the English regions. I give him a forecast that they will be defeated again. Then, once again, they will change their tune, and in a few years' time we will hear a different tune on devolution in England.
The hon. Gentleman continued with his bogus claim that our proposals mean the death of county councils. I simply say to him that there is absolutely no substance to that. There is no intrinsic threat to counties. The boundary committee will be free to decide what, in its view, are the best options for unitary local government and to put them forward. The people of each region that opts for a referendum will then be free to decide which they prefer. The boundary committee will have, in essence, two criteria: first, it must have regard to reflecting the interests and identities of local communities; and secondly, it must ensure effective and convenient local government. We will leave it up to the boundary committee to decide what options to come up with. We have not said that it should be limited to just two options—we have given it the freedom to decide to have more. It will also be for the committee to decide whether there should be one modelled on the county structure and one on the grouping of districts, or whatever other formulation it chooses. There will be no prescription—it will be for the committee to recommend the right way forward.
As for the Conservative nostalgia for county councils, many other Members forcefully made the point that in the course of 30 years the Conservative party consistently abolished councils, giving the people of the affected areas no option to have any say whatsoever. The people of Berkshire and Cleveland had no say when their counties were abolished, the people of Hereford and Worcester had no say about amalgamation and so on. I could go on at length. It is therefore humbug for Conservative Members to claim to be the champions of county councils.
4.15 pm
The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge asked an important question about the implications of
amendment No. 11, which would require the Electoral Commission to publish its views on the intelligibility of the referendum question. The Electoral Commission is already required to publish its views on the intelligibility of the main question on an elected regional assembly. It has done that and we have taken its views into account and amended the question accordingly.With the second question, the intelligibility of the formulation of the options for wholly unitary local government must be considered. We do not know what the boundary committee will recommend or how the options can be expressed. The amendment would therefore provide for the Electoral Commission to present its views at an appropriate stage. I hope that that explains the reason for the amendment. We cannot yet anticipate the exact formulation of the question, and the Electoral Commission must have an opportunity to consider its intelligibility and make recommendations, which we shall consider as we considered those on the wider question on the elected regional assembly.
I was fascinated to hear the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge conclude that he would not recommend that his party vote against the amendments, on the curious constitutional premise that it was bound to be defeated because of the size of the Government majority. My right hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, East and Washington, West (Joyce Quin) was right to say that in that case, we would have no more votes for the rest of the Parliament. Even without the assistance of the Liberal Democrats, the Government have a large majority and might be presumed likely to win every vote.
I was first elected to this place when our party was in a small minority compared with a large Conservative party. We voted on principle, irrespective of whether we expected to win. I am astonished that today's Conservative party does not have the courage of its convictions and vote, even if it has opposed the amendments in the debate.
Joyce Quin: Does my right hon. Friend suspect that the Opposition realise that the amendment might prove popular after all and they do not want to be on the wrong side of the argument?
Mr. Raynsford: I shall not be tempted to make any more suppositions about the Conservative party's motivation. It has dug itself into a sufficiently large hole without my needing to help it.
I was grateful for the support of my right hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, East and Washington, West in her contribution. She has been a stalwart supporter of regional government for many years and is obviously delighted that she can continue to give full support to the Government proposals. She believes that it is right for people to have a say about the form of unitary local government in the north-east region.
The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) clearly supported the amendments. He played an important part in the development and formulation of several of them. I pay tribute to his commitment to ensuring the Bill's passage and making available the option of regional government to people throughout the country. We believe that it is right that people should have that option and I know that that is the Liberal
Democrats' view. I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman persuaded some of his Friends in another place who were less committed to regional government not to block the Bill. I am also pleased that they succeeded in avoiding the outcome that the Conservative party would have liked—of preventing the measure from reaching the statute book.I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton and assure him that we shall continue to work constructively to ensure that people have the option of regional government, and that the dream is realised for regions that want the ability to take charge of their affairs and have elected bodies in the region making decisions rather than Whitehall or quangos.
My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) is also a strong supporter of regional government, and he reiterated his belief in the need for the appropriate reorganisation of local government. I am delighted that the amendments make possible the outcome that he clearly wishes for his county—if that is what the boundary committee comes forward with, I hasten to add, because that will not be my decision.
The hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson) asked whether unitary Tynemouth could be reunited with Northumberland. I am sorry to disappoint him, but we have no provision for an existing unitary area to be taken out of its current unitary status and transferred into a two-tier area. It is possible, however, that the boundary committee might recommend that part of the existing two-tier Northumberland might be connected to Tynemouth, or indeed to other adjoining unitaries. That would be up to the boundary committee to decide. If that were the case, only the people living in the two-tier area—that is, the existing county of Northumberland areas—would have the vote. As I explained in response to an earlier question from the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, that is because if we were to extend the vote to people within the existing unitary area, we would have the problem that has been highlighted earlier, of the votes of the people in the two-tier area being swamped by the much larger numbers living in the predominantly unitary area.
Mr. Kevan Jones: Will my right hon. Friend clarify the reference that he just made to Tynemouth and Northumberland? He well knows that these issues are closely followed in the local press. Will he confirm that he was not in fact proposing that those two areas should be joined, but that it is an option that could be put forward?
Mr. Beith: A hypothetical one.
Mr. Jones: Indeed. Otherwise, we might see headlines tomorrow stating that Tynemouth is to become part of Northumberland.
Mr. Raynsford: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for anticipating the possible misinterpretation of what I was saying. I was making it clear that the Bill now provides for the option, when the reorganisation of unitary local government takes place, for some parts of the two-tier areas to become linked to existing unitary authorities. That is the option, and it might happen in some parts of the country, but I have no view at all about
either the likelihood or the desirability of that happening in respect of any part of Northumberland, Durham or, indeed, any other region of the country. This is not my decision; it will be a matter for the boundary committee to decide. I certainly know of no proposal to link any part of Northumberland with the existing unitary authority of North Tyneside, to give it its proper title.
Mr. Peter Atkinson: I am grateful for the Minister's clarification. I am rather sorry that the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) intervened on him, because I was hoping that the Minister would set that hare running. It would have made headlines in the morning.
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