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Mr. Raynsford: I am happy that I have prevented that particular hare from running, and I shall resist the temptation to speculate as to what might be appropriate outcomes in other parts of the region. I must also apologise to the hon. Member for Hexham for having caused him a late lunch; I hope that he will be able to get away reasonably soon.
The hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster) finds it difficult to understand why we cannot de-couple regional issues from local government reorganisation. The answer is a very simple one. Unlike his party, we do not believe in the proliferation of tiers of government. Unitary local government exists in every area of the country in which there has been devolution—whether in Scotland, Wales or London, where we have the Greater London Authority. People are not, therefore, confused by a proliferation of different tiers of government. We believe that it is right that, where English regions opt for elected regional assemblies, there should be no more than two tiers of government below the national level—obviously excluding parish councils. Essentially, that means that unitary local government is, in our view, a necessary concomitant of the move towards regional government, and the two must go together.
The only other interesting observation that the hon. Member for Bath made was that the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton had been wrongly presented as having been blackmailed. The hon. Gentleman himself chose to portray his hon. Friend as the blackmailer rather than the blackmailed. I have to say that, on that one, his judgment is quite wrong. The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton has, as I have already made clear, shown a strong commitment to furthering the cause of regional government, but he has not been in the position of being either the blackmailed or the blackmailer. I am sorry that he has been done such an injustice by the hon. Member for Bath, to whom I happily give way.
Mr. Foster: I am grateful to the Minister, although I shall leave it to others to decide who did the blackmailing. The evidence is fairly clear that my hon. Friend has wrung a large number of concessions from the Minister, and whether that is blackmail or not does not matter.
May I make another point to the Minister before he moves on from me? I pointed out that I am not currently in a need-to-know position, but, nevertheless, we have had assurances from my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton that we can anticipate the
possibility of boundary reviews in some regions after the first three years. As I am not in a need-to-know position and as there are relatively few of us here, will the Minister at least bring us into his confidence on that issue?
Mr. Raynsford: I strongly advise the hon. Gentleman to remain in a position in which he has no need to know. All I can say to him is that we have no plans at the moment other than to proceed on the basis of the existing Government office boundaries. That is what is stated in our White Paper, but also in our White Paper we said that that does not preclude the possibility, at a future date, of some review of the boundaries. That has been our position consistently; that remains our position. He need read nothing into those remarks, as there is no change in the position.
The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) welcomed the amendments and the greater choice available to electors. He also made a number of interesting observations on how the case for unitary local government has become more persuasive over the years. He was absolutely right in talking about the public confusion over what responsibility lies with particular tiers of government. In answer to the hon. Member for Bath, I say that that is one of the strongest reasons for insisting on a unitary government framework where there is a regional tier, because the scope for confusion would be even greater if we had a regional tier, a county tier and a district tier responsible for different services.
I very much appreciate the support of the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed and I welcome the fact that by far the majority of Members who have spoken support the amendments. I hope that we can now agree to them.
Lords amendments Nos. 4 to 19 agreed to, some with Special Entry.
Lords amendment: No. 20.
Mr. Leslie: I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): With this, it will be convenient to deal with Lords amendments Nos. 21 and 22.
Mr. Leslie: After a long but very interesting debate on the previous amendment, it gives me enormous pleasure to have the opportunity to discuss in great detail, but fairly briefly I hope, the issues surrounding these Lords amendments, which relate to the circumstances for the exclusion of legal proceedings challenging the certification of a referendum or referendum results.
Amendments Nos. 20 and 21 are consequential on the introduction of a local referendum in areas with two tiers of local government, and it is right that the same provisions for legal challenge to a count should apply to
local referendums under the new clause 2 as well as to the regional assembly referendums under clause 1. These two amendments would achieve that. Amendment No. 22 represents a slightly more significant change rather than a consequential matter. I hope briefly to describe what that entails.There has already been quite a lot of debate in both Houses on the terminology used in what is known as the ouster clause—clause 10—which would prevent frivolous legal moves that might delay a Government responding to the result of a referendum. We have always said, and this remains the case, that serious challenges would not be barred, but we have listened and responded carefully to the debates and queries on the wording and meaning of the so-called ouster clause, which were raised in Committee, during earlier proceedings in this House and in another place.
We feel that this amendment helps to clarify the matter. Legal challenges to the certification of referendum results will now be clearly allowable in two specific circumstances—if they are brought by a claim for judicial review, and if they are brought within six weeks of certification.
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The amendment was prompted in particular by questions about how third-party fraud might be handled if it occurred during a referendum process. What would happen if someone sought to issue a legal challenge to the certification of the result? We should draw a distinction between the processes involved in the counting officers' work and the actual certification process. Third-party fraud might not be considered to have occurred during the latter process. We felt that we should spell out the circumstances in which a legal challenge would be possible and might be necessary, and we have therefore specified both a time frame and a mechanism for such challenges.
The amendments make clear the circumstances in which legal proceedings could be excluded or allowed, and improve the Bill in a way recommended by both Houses. I hope that this House will accept them.
Mr. Hammond: This is a curious grouping. I can say that because I was advised by the Clerk last night that the Minister in charge, rather than Mr. Speaker, is responsible for grouping Lords amendments.
Lords amendments Nos. 20 and 21 extend to the proposed local authority referendum provisions already applying to the main referendum. We may have our differences about the Bill—indeed, we have aired them effectively this afternoon—but given that the House has already agreed to the earlier amendments, this must be seen as an uncontroversial proposal, ensuring some continuity of architecture.
Lords amendment No. 22 is more substantive. Of course these are only words, but I am grateful to the Minister in the other place for accepting the need to clarify the fact—it is, I think, no more than a clarification—that the exclusion of access to the courts was never intended to mean exclusion of the possibility of judicial review. Nevertheless, given the principle that Acts of Parliament should be plain speaking, it is surely sensible to include a specific reference to the availability to a member of the public, or an organisation, of access to the courts through judicial review.
As I probably say about 500 times during the consideration of every Bill, I am not a lawyer. I was, however, interested to see a specific reference to a period of six weeks for the bringing of a judicial review application. As a layman, I understood that hitherto the law had stated that judicial review applications must be brought as soon as practicable, and in any event within three months. A relatively recent appeal decision suggested that "as soon as practicable" would normally mean six weeks, in the absence of exceptional circumstances. The Bill, though, specifies six weeks, with no reference to exceptional circumstances. My interpretation of that is that an application brought seven weeks after the relevant date would automatically fail without such a reference.
Mr. John Taylor (Solihull): Not least on the basis of my own experience, I urge my hon. Friend never to be deferential or apologetic about not being a lawyer. In a long career, I have encountered cases in which the lawyer knows the legal position exactly, but the layman knows that it does not matter.
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