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Mr. David Hanson (Delyn) indicated dissent.
Mr. Forth: The hon. Gentleman declines my offer, which is a great pity because I am in a generous mood. If he wishes to speak, he has only to catch my eye and I shall oblige him.
So we have identified the issue that emanates directly from the role of the Committee both in the past and as it will be under the guidance of the President of the Council if he is made not only a member of the Committee but, as was his predecessor, its Chairman. I
consulted "Erskine May", as one always does if one is wise, to make sure of my facts, and on page 637, under the heading "Proceedings in select committees", it says:
- "Election of chairman. The chairman of a select committee is chosen by the committee itself except in rare cases when the House otherwise orders."
I hope that the Committee will consider our proceedings today. I hope it might even consider my modest contribution and—who knows?—the contribution of others, and ask itself a serious question: lumbered as it may be by the House with the presence of the President of the Council and his faithful and loyal Parliamentary Private Secretary, does it really want that same President of the Council to be its Chairman, or would it not rather have a more independent spirit?
We have with us today the living embodiment of an alternative approach, in the shape of my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young). I did not tip him off about that, which is why he looks pleasurably surprised. He, as a distinguished and senior member of—for the time being—the Opposition, chairs another key Committee that is involved with matters pertaining to the House, the Standards and Privileges Committee. It is now acknowledged—I pay tribute to the Government for this—that a senior member of the Opposition should properly chair that Committee.
Following that precedent—I would go further, and I think my right hon. Friend would endorse what I say—his Committee recently accepted the proposal that no Parliamentary Private Secretary should serve on his Committee, because the fact that Members are Parliamentary Private Secretaries can sometimes raise a scintilla of doubt about their impartiality in dealing with the House or, in the case of my right hon. Friend's Committee, in dealing with Members.
The precedent exists. What I am suggesting does not come out of the blue. It is not strange, new or different. A Committee of the House has already determined that it is proper and appropriate for a Committee dealing with House matters to be chaired by a member of the Opposition, rather than a member of the Government, yet the motion, with the names that it proposes, represents the denial of that proposition.
It looks as though the Leader of the House intends to make a contribution to the debate. I hope he will. He is looking pregnant, so perhaps he will honour us with his thoughts, once others have caught Madam Deputy Speaker's eye. I hope that we might hear the reflections of the Leader of the House on how, if we agree the motion, he would see his role as a member of the Committee, and whether he has any aspirations to chair the Committee and to submit his name in the proper way.
If the right hon. Gentleman confirms that, and before we vote on the motion, the House would welcome his views on how he sees his role as a member, if not the Chairman, of the Committee and, more importantly, how he would square his vital role as President of the
Council and Leader of the House with his role as a member, if not the Chairman, of the Modernisation Committee, given the direct bearing that its recommendations have on the relationship between the House as the legislature and the Executive.I welcome the opportunity provided by the motion to explore these issues, to satisfy ourselves as a House that this is indeed the appropriate and proper way forward, and, even better, to hear from the prospective member and—who knows?—even the prospective Chairman, if the Committee were so to decide, how he sees that role and how he would see it developing, were he to be honoured with membership of the Committee and even more honoured by the chairmanship of it.
Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West): Does my right hon. Friend agree that the House deserves and requires an exposition from the Leader of the House and from the hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) of where they stand on modernisation? There are shades of opinion across the House as to the enthusiasm with which the process is received.
Mr. Forth: I an grateful to my hon. Friend, as I sometimes have the suspicion that, on the Government side, enthusiasts for what has come to be known as modernisation—pathetic souls who want the House to do as little as possible and who want to see the Government triumphant on every occasion—are over-represented on the Committee. I hope that the hon. Lady might honour us with a brief exposition of how she would see her role on the Committee, in order that we can judge her suitability for it. The Committee could benefit from a dose of scepticism. That may or may not be forthcoming from the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Lady.
This is an important parliamentary occasion. It is an opportunity for the House to give the matter some thought. I shall hold fire until I hear the debate, and perhaps what the Lord President has to say, before I decide how I shall vote on the motion.
5.20 pm
Sir George Young (North-West Hampshire): I preface my remarks by saying that personally I have nothing against the Leader of the House. He is a man for whom I have deep respect and affection, and when after the next election my party is returned with a modest majority I hope that we will continue to pair as we used to in previous Parliaments.
I commend my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) for the restraint with which he spoke. He referred to a convention that when there is a vacancy on a Select Committee for one party, another party does not intervene. I think that I recollect that in the previous Parliament a motion proposing that my right hon. Friend be a member of the Commission was opposed. I am not even sure that it was not defeated in a vote. Therefore, he spoke with tremendous restraint this afternoon, against the background of the discourtesy that was extended to him when he was a candidate for the Commission—a post for which he has now assumed responsibility.
Two issues arise, one of which concerns the role of Select Committees. As my right hon. Friend said, Select Committees are the vehicle by which the House of
Commons holds the Executive to account. There is a precedent for a Minister sitting on a Select Committee. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury is an ex officio member of the Public Accounts Committee, but he never returns. As I recall when I held the position, I turned up for one meeting and thereafter I played no part in its proceedings. It is crucial to the role of Select Committees that the Executive are not represented on them. The strength of the Select Committee system is that independent Back Benchers chair the Committees.The Leader of the House is one of the few members of the Cabinet who is not shadowed by a Select Committee. I suppose the other is the Prime Minister, but that deficiency has now been put right by the Liaison Committee interrogating the Prime Minister twice a year.
One could argue that we should have a Select Committee that holds the Leader of the House to account, but what is proposed here—this is the second point that I want to make—is the clearest conflict of interest. The Leader of the House is a member of the Cabinet and it is his responsibility to deliver the Government's legislative programme. He plans the business of the House. If there is a problem with the passage of a Bill, he is answerable to the Cabinet and the Prime Minister for what has gone wrong. He is in the Cabinet to deliver the Government's programme. There could not be a clearer conflict of interest than that same person chairing the Modernisation Committee, which decides the rules that the House will exercise in dealing with that same legislative programme. There could not be a clearer example of short-circuiting the system than the manager of the Government's legislative programme chairing the Select Committee that decides the rules by which that legislative programme will go through the House.
We have an answer to the dilemma: the previous Leader of the House, who is now on the Back Benches, would be an excellent member of the Modernisation Committee. It would then be a matter for the Modernisation Committee to decide whether he should continue to be its Chairman. As a previous holder of that position, I happen to agree with many of the things that the former Leader of the House did. I do not agree with all the strictures of my right hon. Friend about the Modernisation Committee. I happen to believe that Westminster Hall was a sensible innovation.
The answer to the dilemma that confronts the House is for the new Leader of the House to withdraw the motion and allow the Modernisation Committee to decide who of the existing members should be the Chairman. They may choose the right hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) or someone else. If one could do that this evening, one would answer the criticisms that have been made by my right hon. Friend and the House could adjourn at an early hour.
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