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12.56 pm
Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (West Derbyshire): I wish to follow my hon. Friend's comments with a couple of short points.
Yesterday, we heard an important announcement—that is the only way to describe it—from the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who told us that one reason why the House of Commons could have only one day to debate a Bill was that the House of Lords needed two days to debate it, and the elected Chamber had to take second place in preference to the other place. The Finance Bill does not face that hurdle because it does not have to be reviewed in another place. That is why it is so essential that it receive proper and adequate scrutiny in the House of Commons.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Mr. Flight) said, we are embarked upon debating over a very short period one of the largest Finance Bills to have passed through the House. I know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you said that we must only refer to the debates that will take place today and tomorrow, but in so doing, we will consider only the parts of the Bill that have been selected for debate on the Floor of the House, and we have been able to select for consideration only a very small proportion of a hugely complicated and complex Bill. It is unacceptable that we should not get adequate time to scrutinise the Bill in its entirety.
One has only to look at the programme motion, which says that on the second day we will debate
- "new Clauses tabled by Friday 9th May".
Dawn Primarolo: If the hon. Gentleman would cast his mind back—I know that it is a long way—to the time when his party was in government, he may recall how many Government amendments they tabled to the Finance Bill.
Mr. McLoughlin: I seem to remember that the 1997 election slogan was, "Things can only get better". Perhaps we should add, "apart from in the House of Commons," where they get more contemptible. The
Paymaster General referred to Conservative Finance Bills, which were not subject to the rigorous guillotining that happens nowadays. I cannot remember another Finance Bill that had 14 sittings in Committee. That is ridiculous, as is the programme motion, which clearly shows the absolute contempt for this place of which we heard yesterday in the resignation speech of the former Secretary of State for International Development.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. For the assistance of hon. Members who seek to catch my eye, I must clarify that we are discussing the motion on the Order Paper. I do not wish to hear comments that go beyond that.
1 pm
Mr. David Wilshire (Spelthorne): I shall confine myself to the motion because I believe that it is wrong. When discussions take place between the usual channels about the number of days for discussion on the Floor of the House, an agreement is reached that is usually inadequate for the Opposition and excessive for the Government. The Opposition parties are asked to submit what they want to tackle on the Floor of the House. That process was followed on this occasion. Business was proposed to and accepted by the Government. I am content with that; indeed, I am grateful to them because I was involved in the process.
The trouble started immediately afterwards because the Order Paper contained not only the items for which we asked but additional items. The Government argued that if we requested clause x, whatever they believed appropriate should be tagged on, but that is technically unnecessary. I shall say thank you again to the Government because when we protested, a couple of items were removed for consideration in Standing Committee. However, the trouble centres on some items that were not removed.
We had an understanding that there would be two days on the Floor of the House. We presented our proposals and the Government added to them. Today and tomorrow, we shall therefore consider more business than we requested, more than can be justified and more than we can tackle in the time. That is the nub of the problem. I have a simple question for the Paymaster General. If we do not have time to deal with the extra items that the Government have included and refused to remove, will she give hon. Members an absolute undertaking that a motion will be tabled to enable us to deal with the business Upstairs in Standing Committee? It would be helpful if the Paymaster General listened rather than holding a conversation.
Will the right hon. Lady give us a simple, clear undertaking now that any business that is not concluded today and tomorrow, especially business that the Government tabled and for which we did not ask, will go Upstairs to allow scrutiny? That is essential, especially given that the other place has no opportunity to consider the measure. If she agrees to the request, I shall say thank you for a third time. If not, it is a disgraceful abuse of a Government's power to try to railroad through this place unconsidered legislation that could have dire consequences for the country's economy.
The question is simple. Will the Paymaster General ensure that, whatever happens today and tomorrow, scrutiny takes place?
1.4 pm
Mr. Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield): I do not wish to detain the House for too long. I draw hon. Members' attention to my entry in the Register of Members' Interests. In perusing the motion, I wonder whether the Paymaster General, who has a good reputation for listening both inside and outside the House, can be proud of it. I served on Committees that considered Finance Bills from 1988 to 1992, and I remember no precedent for behaving in such a cavalier way. Nor do I remember the Government whom I supported tabling such motions.
Dawn Primarolo: How many days were allocated for a Committee of the whole House to consider the Finance Bills to which the hon. Gentleman refers? Does he recollect that the answer is two days?
Mr. Mitchell: With great respect to the Paymaster General, she is missing the point. In those four years when I served on Finance Bill Committees, there was agreement between both sides. There is no such agreement today. The right hon. Lady should pay greater heed to tradition, whereby such motions were tabled with agreement and did not cause debates. If she looks back at the record, she will find that no debate such as today's took place in those years. I am worried by the operation of the motion and the way in which it will facilitate railroading an enormous Bill through in a short time.
The Paymaster General will be acutely conscious that serious professionals outside the House, who are engaged in the City or the financial service industry, have reservations about the way in which we conduct our scrutiny of the Finance Bill. She will be familiar with the tax rewrite committee and the work of Lord Howe's committee on more effective scrutiny of such legislation, of which the hon. and learned Member for Dudley, North (Ross Cranston) and I are members. I hope that the Paymaster General accepts that serious professionals outside this place are worried about the quality and extent of our scrutiny. The motion will not assuage their doubts about the proper scrutiny by the House of Commons. The Paymaster General fully understands that some of the subjects that are tabled for debate today may not set pulses racing, but they are vital to industry, business and commerce and they deserve proper scrutiny.
It will not have escaped the right hon. Lady's notice that, apart from the Front-Bench spokesman, the two other Conservative Members who have spoken are the deputy Chief Whip and the Whip responsible for the Finance Bill. Both made cogent points about why the motion allows too short a time and is excessively hard on the House of Commons. I hope the right hon. Lady will take cognisance of that.
The Paymaster General should bear in mind the important point that there is no scrutiny in the Lords. She will have witnessed the great anxiety, which was expressed recently in another place, about timetabling the Communications Bill. She knows about the trouble that the Government are experiencing. If they had listened to representations from Conservative Members about making more time available, they would not have got into such difficulties with the Communications Bill.
Parliamentary scrutiny and the effectiveness with which we discharge such duties are under intense outside observation. Such oppressive timetabling will have the opposite effect from what the Government hope. It will not mean that their measures receive greater acceptance or go through more quickly. We need a legislators' revolt against the Executive—a modern-day peasants' revolt. I hope that one of its first victories will be the prevention of unfair timetabling such as we have today.
1.9 pm
Mr. Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon): It is a pleasure to speak in my first Finance Bill Committee and I declare my entry in the Register of Members' Interests.
Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is my understanding from the guidance that has been issued to Members of Parliament that it is not sufficient for a Member simply to say, "I declare my interest as registered."
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