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John Healey: My hon. Friend makes an important point: the health of the industry cannot be judged simply by the number of clubs alone. One of the purposes of our reforms is to try to encourage greater participation in bingo. As I mentioned, the evidence submitted to us by the Bingo Association, as part of the consultation process, suggests that, as a result of our reforms, there will be an extra 500,000 players a year.
In direct response to the point made by the hon. Member for East Carmarthen and Dinefwr (Adam Price), I stress that we are still willing to talk to and listen to the industry. That is why we are introducing two amendments on the implementation and administration arrangements. I shall briefly explain the background to the amendments to exemplify my general point.
When we held consultations on the abolition of bingo duty, we asked bingo operators how long they would need to introduce the changes necessary to comply with a gross profits tax system. The industry's responses were clear: three months from the date of the announcement would be sufficient. We thus announced in the Budget on 9 April that bingo duty would be abolished and replaced by a tax on bingo companies' gross profits from 4 August this year. However, at a meeting held shortly after the Budget to discuss implementation, the industry told officials that previously unforeseen issues had been identified, which meant that it would not be ready to operate the tax by that date. The industry asked the Government to delay the start of the new tax to allow it sufficient time to amend its systems. We have listened to the industry's concerns and are amending the Bill to delay the tax reform until 27 October—the date that the industry now prefers. In addition, the bingo industry asked whether the start and end of the accounting periods could be amended so that they matched more closely the industry's accounting practices. That would avoid the need for bingo operators to make amendments to their accounting systems. We therefore propose to amend the accounting periods as suggested in the second Government amendment.
Finally, in our discussions with the bingo industry since the Budget, we have been asked to examine how the calculations of the gross profits tax will interact with the treatment of VAT on par fees, which is the subject of amendment No. 69. I am considering that specific issue further.
In summary, this clause, with the two minor amendments, will put in place a sensible reform of an outdated duty system. As it stands, the package of reform will deliver a £25 million tax boost to the industry, which should benefit both players and companies. On the detail of implementation and reform, we are undertaking, and we will maintain, a continuing close dialogue with the industry. On that basis, I urge my hon. Friends to support the clause and the two Government amendments but to reject the other amendments.
Mr. Stephen O'Brien: For the first time in Committee, I have been disappointed by the Economic Secretary's tone, because we are dealing with today's Finance Bill, this Chancellor and his Budget statement on 9 April this year—today's world, here and now. The Economic Secretary is attempting to engage in some kind of historical record swapping, about which, of course, I have no clue—he is talking about a time decades ago, way back in history. What I do know, however, is that I receive representations today about those who enjoy bingo and who want it to be put on a level playing field. The Chancellor deliberately raised their expectations in his Budget statement, and those have been dashed. We have a right and a duty, on behalf of those who make representations to us, to test why those expectations have failed to be met.
However much the Economic Secretary thinks that it may help his case, it is irrelevant to parrot historical facts: he knows that I will not have come armed with them, and that it would waste the Committee's time to argue about them. He has demeaned what has been a
good debate to date by scattering around statistics suggesting that bingo has declined more under one party than another, when in fact the whole industry is in crisis because it has declined. More to the point, he scatters those statistics around as if there is no connection with sociological factors, geographical factors, economic factors or the public's preference for television, cinema, the internet or other competing entertainments. He merely chooses to make an assertion.What happened, in truth, is that we hit a raw nerve: the Chancellor has been found out to have deliberately led expectations, with crisp phrases such as "as if", "the same as" and "just as in the case of" in relation to pools and gaming. When we look at the detail, however, we find yet again that the Bingo Association, whose representations have been good and well articulated, has been let down. It and the people whom it represents, both the businesses and people who play bingo—millions of women, primarily, up and down the country—are right to feel let down. The Economic Secretary has put up a poor defence.
Of course, I am happy to note that the Economic Secretary has clarified what was surprisingly unclear in what we have argued is, in places, an ill drafted Finance Bill. I am glad that he took notice of some of the representations made by the Bingo Association, and, of course, we accept those Government amendments—we do not take issue with them. I also noted that the Minister said that he was considering further amendment No. 69, which I tabled with my hon. Friends. That is of some encouragement, but of course the key is amendment No. 6, on which he puts a price. In the overall order of things, given the expectations that the Chancellor raised deliberately in the minds of all those who have a concern about today's world and about moving forwards, rather than about the spurious historical context that the Minister was trying to pray in aid—it did not work, I hasten to add—£60 million is a figure about which this wasteful Treasury can think again, given that it has never sought to justify, although it is about to be put under much more pressure to do so, the significant waste in government. That amount, £60 million, could easily be found, given the enormous 20 per cent. increase, from £13.5 billion to £17 billion, in administrative costs at the centre—the head office of the Government—and I urge the Government to find it.
Mr. George Osborne: Indeed, that would also encourage the industry to grow. Therefore tax revenues from the industry would actually increase.
Mr. O'Brien: My hon. Friend rightly makes the point that we are all trying to aim for that. In the papers that I have seen and in the letter that was copied to me and sent to the Economic Secretary, the Bingo Association also makes that point. It is a patient, well argued and articulate case.
5.45 pm
I recognise that any Minister in the position of the Economic Secretary is faced with what inevitably will be carefully scrutinised representations from all sorts of competing interests. Inevitably, the Government will always say, "There will be special pleading on this and
special pleading on that." The key is that special pleading gets discounted, and anyone making representations to any Government of any colour knows that. What matters is that, when people come forward with suggestions that would help the Government to deliver their objectives, the Government should listen.The Government have set objectives and the Chancellor used phraseology in the Budget statement that confirmed those objectives. However, when the detail comes out in the Finance Bill, we find that the objectives have been trimmed. The real nub of our argument, which has quite properly been supported by the Liberal Democrat spokesman, is that there was an expectation of a level playing field. That expectation has not been met. That is why people feel let down. It would be right if the Economic Secretary had acknowledged that we have a fair argument.
I am disappointed to hear that the Economic Secretary is not prepared to accept amendment No. 6. We shall certainly press it to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The Committee divided: Ayes 134, Noes 336.
AYES
Amess, David
Ancram, rh Michael
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bacon, Richard
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Baron, John (Billericay)
Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)
Bellingham, Henry
Bercow, John
Blunt, Crispin
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Bottomley, rh Virginia (SW Surrey)
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, John
Cameron, David
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chope, Christopher
Clappison, James
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Collins, Tim
Conway, Derek
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cran, James (Beverley)
Curry, rh David
Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Duncan, Peter (Galloway)
Duncan Smith, rh Iain
Ewing, Annabelle
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Francois, Mark
Garnier, Edward
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Grayling, Chris
Grieve, Dominic
Gummer, rh John
Hague, rh William
Hammond, Philip
Hawkins, Nick
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, rh David
Hendry, Charles
Hermon, Lady
Hogg, rh Douglas
Horam, John (Orpington)
Howard, rh Michael
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Jack, rh Michael
Johnson, Boris (Henley)
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Lilley, rh Peter
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Maude, rh Francis
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
May, Mrs Theresa
Mercer, Patrick
Moss, Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Norman, Archie
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Portillo, rh Michael
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Randall, John
Redwood, rh John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Angus (Moray)
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rosindell, Andrew
Sayeed, Jonathan
Selous, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Soames, Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Swayne, Desmond
Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Syms, Robert
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Weir, Michael
Whittingdale, John
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Ann (Congleton)
Wishart, Pete
Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Mark Hoban and
Mrs. Cheryl Gillan
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allan, Richard
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barrett, John
Barron, rh Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Benn, Hilary
Benton, Joe (Bootle)
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Boateng, rh Paul
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Brennan, Kevin
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Bruce, Malcolm
Bryant, Chris
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnett, John
Burstow, Paul
Byers, rh Stephen
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Cairns, David
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Gregory (E Lond'y)
Campbell, rh Menzies (NE Fife)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Caplin, Ivor
Carmichael, Alistair
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cooper, Yvette
Corston, Jean
Cotter, Brian
Cousins, Jim
Cran, James (Beverley)
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Dalyell, Tam
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davidson, Ian
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Dodds, Nigel
Donaldson, Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Brian H.
Doran, Frank
Doughty, Sue
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drew, David (Stroud)
Drown, Ms Julia
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Follett, Barbara
Foster, rh Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Foulkes, rh George
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gidley, Sandra
Gilroy, Linda
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hanson, David
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Harvey, Nick
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Healey, John
Heath, David
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Margaret
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Holmes, Paul
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Hoon, rh Geoffrey
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jenkins, Brian
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Kaufman, rh Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Keen, Ann (Brentford)
Kemp, Fraser
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Lamb, Norman
Lammy, David
Laws, David (Yeovil)
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Luke, Iain (Dundee E)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McCartney, rh Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDonald, Calum
MacDougall, John
McFall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNamara, Kevin
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Mandelson, rh Peter
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Meale, Alan (Mansfield)
Merron, Gillian
Milburn, rh Alan
Miliband, David
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moffatt, Laura
Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Moore, Michael
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Elliot
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Organ, Diana
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, rh John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Purnell, James
Quinn, Lawrie
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Adrian
Sarwar, Mohammad
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sheridan, Jim
Shipley, Ms Debra
Singh, Marsha
Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh John
Squire, Rachel
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Thurso, John
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Wareing, Robert N.
Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)
Watts, David
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Betty (Conwy)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wood, Mike (Batley)
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wray, James (Glasgow Baillieston)
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Jim Murphy and
Mr. Gerry Sutcliffe
Question accordingly negatived.
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