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Mrs. Dunwoody: Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Mullin: I am sorry. I have finished.
Simon Hughes: I am happy to take part in what is an important debate. My hon. Friends and I on the Liberal Democrat Benches are signatories to amendments Nos. 1, 2 and 3. In relation to each of the Government's three proposals to change and to reduce jury trial, we do not believe that the case has been made. We do not oppose
the proposals because there is not a proper debate to be had; there is. We do not do it because there is no argument on the other side; there is. However, having seen the work by the committees that preceded the legislation—especially Lord Justice Auld's committee—having looked at the White Paper, having sat through the Committee that considered the Bill and having looked at the evidence, we do not believe that it would be right to do away with jury trial in those three cases. To use the obvious test, jury trial is so well established and works so well that the case would have to be made beyond reasonable doubt for that to be changed and it has not been, so we stand by the present position.7.15 pm
The Chairman of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin), referred to the fact that in the previous Parliament—my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) asked the Home Secretary a very good question about this—this House and the other place fought very hard to resist a wholesale, full-frontal assault on the jury trial system and Parliament won, thank goodness. This is not a wholesale, full-frontal attack on the jury trial system. It is a staged attack of a lesser nature. It proposes a little less jury trial rather than a lot less jury trial but, like the right hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin), his colleagues, many Labour Members and, more important, many non-politicians and non-lawyers out there whom we represent, we are persuaded that, once one starts to move away from such a well-tried and well-established system, it is very difficult to resist arguments for further change and there is little logic in going down a road so far and not going down it further.
Roughly 29,000 people serve as lay magistrates in England and Wales and 200,000 people a year serve on juries—a significant cross-section of the British public, the like of which Parliament and the judiciary will never be. They are a very great protection to ensure that the criminal justice system is the people's justice system, not the professionals' justice system.
I want to give six reasons why jury trial should be held on to, unless the case is so overwhelming that it should be changed. First, it works, and if it works we should not seek to replace it. In the cases that we are talking about, it also works. Figures have been cited in the Chamber about the conviction rates in the most difficult and most complex fraud cases, which arguably would be the least likely to secure the understanding of a jury such that it felt comfortable about convicting beyond reasonable doubt. The conviction rate in those cases is much higher than elsewhere.
I represent a lot of people who have been defendants, and other colleagues will, to varying degrees, have done the same. No defendants have complained to me that they would rather have had a judge try their case than a jury. That has never been the cause of a queue at my surgery or a lot of letters in my postbag. In fact, I have had rather good reports of the jury system by those who participated in it. There are many criticisms of the criminal justice system, but the jury system has not attracted criticism. We should be careful to focus on the places where there is criticism.
Secondly—we referred to this and I will not elaborate—jury trial, like the lay magistracy, increases public involvement in the criminal justice system. Trial by judge self-evidently reduces the involvement of ordinary people in that system. The more people are removed from it, the less they feel comfortable about it and confident in it because the less they understand it.
In that context, I pay tribute to my local Crown court, Southwark Crown court, which looks after Middlesex Guildhall, Blackfriars and the old Knightsbridge Crown court, which has moved. It opened its doors on a Saturday recently to explain to the public what happens. It had mock trials, mock pleas and quizzing of judges. It is hugely important that the public feel that it is their place. There were queues at the door to go in, to people's surprise. The public have an interest—[Interruption.] The hon. and learned Member for Medway (Mr. Marshall-Andrews) smiles, suggesting perhaps that those people wanted to learn a few things in preparation for later life but they looked a law-abiding group to me.
Thirdly, as we have said, jury trial is trial by the unpaid and the unprofessional but it is also trial by those who do not come with a reputation. The blunt truth is that judges have reputations—as a soft judge or a hard judge, a tough judge or a less tough judge. When one gets a jury, one cannot predict. One cannot say that it will come to a particular view because it is a cross-section. Judges do not have that lack of reputation, which is extremely important in terms of the confidence in each case.
Mr. Hogg: Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that, in a very restrained way, he is telling the House that many judges are unduly sympathetic to the Crown case?
Simon Hughes: There are certainly such judges, as there are stipendiary magistrates or district judges. The truth is that if one sits in court day after day, one's patience with defence cases may tend to wear thin. I could name a judge, but I will not, who used to sit in my local court and was the judge to avoid by any defendant, irrespective of their guilt or innocence. It was presumed that one would be lucky to escape that judge assisting the jury towards a conclusion of guilty. That does not apply to juries and never has done. The jury starts with a clean sheet, which is important.
Mrs. Claire Curtis-Thomas (Crosby): Will the hon. Gentleman concede that some juries do not start with a clean sheet? He will be aware of my interest in sex abuse cases. For many of the accused in such cases, the opportunity to go into a court without a jury might be of positive benefit, given the predisposition of the public in relation to such offences.
Simon Hughes: I do not accept the hon. Lady's view. There are proposals in the Bill that would make juries start their job without a clean sheet by allowing them to know of previous convictions and history, which would hugely prejudice them. It is proven that somebody with a previous conviction for a sex offence, whatever the new charges might be, will be thought much more likely to be guilty because the public, understandably, have a particular dislike of the offence. I do not accept what she says; juries do a good job when they start with a clean sheet.
The next point, importantly, is that when we have a jury, the case must be put in language that ordinary people understand. With trial by judges, the whole thing can disappear from the realm of the ordinary person. One of the tests of a good case is whether it can be put simply, and I have seen complex cases presented very simply. There can be acres of paper in a complex fraud case, when the issue is very simple. Did somebody fiddle the books? Were they honest or not? Did they tell the truth? The jury understands that if it is put to them clearly, as do the public and reporters.
The collective judgment of character by 12 people from different walks of life is clearly a better test of guilt or innocence than the judgment of character by one person from a very particular walk of life. I served as a judge's marshal soon after I qualified as a member of the Bar, and sat next to a great judge in the Liverpool Crown court. However, Mr. Justice Cantley came to the court with one view. It was important that the collective view of the jury was there to pronounce on guilt or innocence, as opposed to the judge, who then decided on the punishment.
Vera Baird: On complexity, an important allied point is that the presence of the jury requires that the whole of the case be capable of being understood and of being explained simply, not only for the benefit of the jury but for the benefit of the public. Anyone who goes to the Court of Appeal, where professionals are addressing professionals, will see that, very soon, it becomes difficult to follow the plot even if we do not descend into Latin, which lawyers do. The only words that might be understood if the proposals go through might be "guilty" or "not guilty" pronounced at the end. That is completely unacceptable.
Simon Hughes: I endorse entirely what the hon. and learned Lady says. It is important not only that the 200,000 who serve in the jury box understand what is going on, but that the public who read the papers and sit in the gallery, as well as families, friends and relatives, also understand.
Stephen Hesford (Wirral, West): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Simon Hughes: I will not at the moment. I am not trying to be rude, but we have until 8 o'clock because of the guillotine and I am conscious that others want to speak.
Each of the proposals—first, that defendants be allowed to seek trial without a jury, at their instigation; secondly, that complex or lengthy trials be conducted without a jury; and, thirdly, the proposals relating to the consequence of jury tampering—is too widely drawn. For example, in relation to a defendant asking to be tried without a jury, the judge has to decide whether the matters concerned
- "give rise to exceptional circumstances which make it desirable in the interests of justice for the trial to be conducted without a jury."
As my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome said, it is not just complexity, but length that could trigger a jury being done away with.
That could be on the basis of
- "arrangements, transactions or records of a financial or commercial nature or which relate to property".
The Government amendments on jury tampering are welcome, but we should not accept the principle; however, they seek to point out the deficiencies of the drafting. At the moment, there has to be a "real and present danger", which often occurs. The first of the other two tests—only one of which need apply—is that
- "it would be necessary to provide police protection".
- "the level and duration of that protection would be likely to place an excessive burden on the life of a typical juror."
We must resist going down the road. One might say, superficially, that if a defendant wants trial by judge—the hon. Member for Crosby (Mrs. Curtis-Thomas) has argued this—they should be entitled to that. But that produces a two-tier justice system, and the decision of the judge as to guilt or innocence is far more likely to be open to criticism—including by the tabloid media—than the decision of a jury. I can think of many cases in which a jury trial has settled the matter where a decision by a judge would not have done; for example, a decision about a Member of the Houses of Parliament in front of a court but decided by a judge alone. Such cases, and many others, need the certainty that a jury trial would provide.
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