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Simon Hughes: We are holding another important debate and I am conscious of the fact that we are again strapped for time because of the guillotine. I shall therefore not repeat the points made by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve).
We took a straightforward position in our amendments. I refer specifically to amendments Nos. 479 and 480. Instead of schedule 4's long list of 30 offences, to which the Government have tabled a
further, late addition, we propose to remove the schedule and accept the Law Commission's suggestion, which we incorporated in amendment No. 479, of
- "murder, genocide consisting in the killing of any person, or corporate manslaughter".
The majority view in the party was that the provision should be prospective rather than retrospective. If all cases resulting in trial and acquittal could be retried, a generation or more of cases would be reopened, and every acquittal would become a provisional acquittal. We concluded, however, that unless an objective recommendation were followed, no obvious criterion could govern which offences could be subject to retrial and which could not.
The reason given by the Law Commission for saying that murder and genocide should be included and other offences should not, and the reason it gave for not accepting that offences carrying a life sentence should be included, was that everyone accepted—I agree that this is accepted widely—that murder is in a category of its own, genocide is mass murder, and many offences at the bottom of the league that carry life imprisonment as a potential maximum are clearly not regarded as similarly serious.
Vera Baird: The hon. Gentleman is not the puppet of the Law Commission. I was shocked—nay appalled—to see that the amendment did not include rape. Does that mean that the Liberal Democrats do not consider that—in my view—heinous offence to be in what he has just described as the general category of "most serious offences"?
Simon Hughes: We do not say that rape is not in that category; we say that it is—that it is indeed a most serious offence. We had to decide, however, whether to suggest the inclusion of all serious offences, or to take the Law Commission's view as our starting point. For reasons that I understand, the hon. Member for Beaconsfield said that the Conservatives had decided to take one of the commission's recommendations and add an offence to it, which was a bit of a "pick and mix" proposal. The Government went further than the commission, and indeed much further than the White Paper produced only a few months ago, in which they said:
- "For this reason we have decided that the change should extend to a number of other very serious offences such as rape, manslaughter and armed robbery."
Stephen Hesford: The hon. Gentleman used the phrase "pick and mix" in criticising the official
Opposition's approach, but surely his own approach is "pick and mix". The Liberal Democrats have added corporate manslaughter to the list.
Simon Hughes: The Law Commission recommended the inclusion of three offences—murder, genocide and reckless killing. When the Bill began its life, "reckless killing" was the third offence on the list, but I understand that the Government are to update "killing" offences and term them "corporate manslaughter". We propose that offences whose objective and result are people's deaths should be included, for the reasons given by the Law Commission.
I do not pretend that the Law Commission has an absolute right view, but it makes what are clearly objective recommendations to Parliament on what laws should be changed and how. We think it necessary, for reasons given by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield, to start carefully. This is not just a break with tradition; it is, potentially, a risky and dangerous course. We think it best to begin with a category of offences that, by anyone's definition, are at the top of the list.
Mr. Allen: I share the hon. Gentleman's concern about changing criminal law by Executive reflex. Tomorrow we will, I hope, have an interesting debate about the Sentencing Guidelines Council, which at least attempts to go beyond the megaphone diplomacy of the Home Secretary and the judiciary in the argument about sentencing levels. It is, however, incumbent on the hon. Gentleman to explain how we can go further than the Law Commission's recommendations. What mechanism does he envisage for adding offences legitimately, rather than just coming up with a list produced by someone in the Department? How can we reach a consensus on offences that should be added?
Simon Hughes: I do not think that there is much between the hon. Gentleman and me on this matter. The Liberal Democrats are starting with the recommendations of the Law Commission, a body that was set up to recommend changes to the law and that has a long-standing reputation for doing so. Had many of its recommendations been adopted by Parliament over the years, we would be much better off. Our proposal was not our invention; it was based on a proposition put forward by the body that has been given that job.
In terms of the development of the provisions, the representatives of the Law Commission are the first people who should be asked, after a reasonable period, for their suggestions in the light of experience. I share the hon. Gentleman's views that there are representative bodies in this place that are appropriate to examine these issues. The Select Committee process would be an appropriate one, involving the Home Affairs Committee and the Select Committee on the Lord Chancellor's Department, for example.
One of the bodies that we are going to discuss tomorrow may make recommendations on sentencing matters, and will involve a broader sweep of people—we would suggest not only those who judge but those who legislate—and that body could appropriately have a role in these circumstances. So we are open to a process for
achieving that. Our proposal is that we should start with the proposition placed on the table by the body that has been given the job to do that, and that, at a later date, we should see how that is going.
Mr. David Kidney (Stafford): The hon. Gentleman's argument relies on the recommendations of the Law Commission, one of which was to include the classification of "reckless killing". The hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Malins) has pointed out, however, that the Government do not include causing death by reckless driving in their list. Why do not the Liberal Democrats include that classification?
Simon Hughes: To be fair, we are trying to be as exact as possible in following the Law Commission's recommendations. I am sympathetic to the proposal that the hon. Gentleman has just mentioned, and I think that the best way out of this debate is to see where there is agreement that we should go forward. That might not get resolved here tonight; it might be more clearly resolved in the House of Lords. I sense that the Liberal Democrats' view that we should not be retrospective or concentrate on trying to revisit the past, but that we should be prospective, has not found much favour.
The consensus seems to be that there should be an ability retrospectively to examine cases, particularly in the light of DNA testing. I give the warning, however, that that does not mean that some of the cases most often cited in this context would be likely to be retried. I have said before that the two cases that even senior police officers have hinted could be, as it were, rescued and opened for retrial by this change, if we were to implement it—the Stephen Lawrence case and the Damilola Taylor case, both of which I have detailed knowledge of—would not be able to be reopened. I think that everyone agrees that a case cannot be reopened if it did not succeed because of a failure in the prosecution process or the investigation. It was very clear from the Lawrence inquiry report—and it seemed clear from the Damilola Taylor inquiry—that it was failures in the process that might not have delivered a verdict in either case, and that no new evidence had come to light.
Lady Hermon: The hon. Gentleman will know that the very last amendment, which we are unlikely to get to this evening, relates to the extension of part 10 to Northern Ireland. That proposal had built up hope for some people, particularly the group known as the disappeared. They are not in south America; they are in Northern Ireland. They are people who have been someone's son or father—or, indeed, someone's mother, as in the case of Jean McConville. Is the hon. Gentleman saying to those families that they have no hope, and that his party does not wish this provision to be retrospective? Does that mean that the families of the disappeared should have no hope of there ever being a prosecution of those who kidnapped or murdered their loved ones?
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