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Mr. Straw: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Ancram: I have given way an awful lot. I have given way rather more than the Foreign Secretary did, and I have given way to him rather more than he gave way to me.
Mr. Ancram: I give way one more time.
Mr. Straw: Just to pin this down, it is clear beyond peradventure that new member states will participate fully in the intergovernmental conference. That was the conclusion of the Copenhagen summit. Another conclusion was that the new treaty will be signed after accession precisely in order to ensure that those countries can participate politically in the negotiations. They have to because, legally, the new treaty could not be signed until after their accession.
Mr. Ancram: The Foreign Secretary, perhaps deliberately, is missing the point. The point is that those countries will not have the right to veto matters within those negotiations; until they are full members, they will not have the right to do so. That is what they say to me and I believe that my suggestion is important.
We need a clear vision to reconnect the peoples of the present EU and the peoples of the future EU with the European Union. We need to create a Europe within which the peoples of the accession countries can feel at home. We have been arguing for some time for a Europe in which the democratic ability to hold the EU and its
institutions to account is strengthened, particularly within the national Parliaments of the nation states. We have been promoting an EU within which the role of the national Parliaments is strengthened in terms of the initiation of European legislation. We are looking for an EU where sovereign Parliaments can come together to veto undesirable EU legislation that offends against the principles of subsidiarity.I heard what the Foreign Secretary said about the present proposals to allow the Commission to take back legislation, to look at it and to reconsider it. He knows as well as I do that that is no power at all, because the Commission could come back with the same legislation all over again. Why will he not accept my suggestion that a significant number of countries could say no to legislation because it offends against the rules of subsidiarity, and stop it in its tracks?
We would like to see a Europe that works increasingly through framework rather than specific directives to recognise individual national needs. We want Europe to return to its first principles of power flowing from the people—through the national Parliaments—upwards rather than from the top down. We want a less bureaucratic and centralised Europe that will allow the new democracies among the accession countries to flourish, and which will recognise and respect the variety and differing interests of the increasingly disparate membership of the EU that accession will bring.
Enlargement is at once a great challenge and a great opportunity for Europe. We wish the accession countries well but we must ensure that the Europe that they are joining is a Europe for the future—a genuine partnership of sovereign nations, flexible, responsive and dynamic, rather than a European superpower, top-heavy, centralised, coercive and inimical to the nation states.
We stand at the crossroads of that decision. We on the Conservative Benches are clear that we will fight to preserve the primacy of the nation states in Europe, the new as much as the old, and we will never forget that, in the end, Europe must never be about its institutions and must always be about its peoples. That is why we believe that, when faced by momentous decisions on Europe's future, it is the peoples of the nation states who should decide, starting with a referendum here. We support the principles of the Bill.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I remind the House that there is a 15-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches from now on.
2.4 pm
Keith Vaz (Leicester, East): The right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) ended his speech by talking about the need for vision. I think he is right. The lack of vision is on the Conservative Benches. What a confused and muddled speech from the right hon. Gentleman. Just imagine the shadow Foreign Secretary not reading the Copenhagen conclusions and therefore not being aware that the new countries when they join on 1 May will be able to participate fully in the next IGC. Of
course they will be able to participate fully, as they have as observers in the debates that are going on at the moment.
Mr. Richard Spring (West Suffolk): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Keith Vaz: I am delighted to be participating in this debate. I am pleased to be able to be part of a debate that will see the enlargement of the European Union.
Keith Vaz: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is being very modest. He has played a very large part in pushing the enlargement process forward. I congratulate him on what he has done and what the Government have done. Those of us who have been watching this particular development over the past few years would not have believed that, less than three years after the Prime Minister made his speech in Warsaw on 6 October 2000, we would be debating the accession of the 10 applicant countries.
I have just returned from Poland, where I met a number of people who are involved in various activities concerned with entry to the EU. They do not share any of the concerns that have been put forward by the shadow Foreign Secretary. They are absolutely delighted that they will be part of the European Union. They are pleased that they will be able to participate in a new Europe and they want to be there as full members, participating in all the decision-making processes.
Mr. Spring: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for finally giving way. He as a former Minister for Europe should know this and I am aghast that he does not. If he had spoken to any of the accession countries, he would know perfectly well that they do not have full voting and equal rights on exactly the same basis as existing members. He is in ignorance of that. Time and again, the accession country representatives have pointed that out to us and hoped that the British Government would take that issue up.
Keith Vaz: The hon. Gentleman will find that he is confused. When those countries join the European Union on 1 May, they will be full members, exactly as the Foreign Secretary has said, and they will be able to participate fully in all the activities of the European Union.
Mr. MacShane: Let me try to explain. When the IGC starts, when it is triggered—we do not yet know when that will be—all 25 member states will participate fully. There are no votes at the IGC in the sense of votes on amendments to a Bill. People search for compromise and the veto power comes at the end of the process. That will not happen until after 1 May next year, when the 10 new member states will be full, legal, veto-wielding members of that IGC. Beforehand, they will have exactly the same powers as us.
I hope that hon. Members can now move on. There is not a problem on this matter. There is a debate about when the IGC should start and how long it should go on for, but we are clear that those countries will participate fully and have the same veto rights as we will at the end.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Interventions, even from the Front Bench, need to be interventions and not speeches.
Keith Vaz: I am grateful to the Minister for Europe. Perhaps he can conduct a seminar for Opposition Members after the debate so that they will know exactly what is going on. Perhaps that will result in another dramatic conversion by the shadow Foreign Secretary, who may then support some of the views that have been expressed.
Mr. Francis Maude (Horsham): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Keith Vaz: I give way to the Conservative Member who signed the Maastricht treaty.
Mr. Maude: I am grateful for that. It is important to probe further the matter that the hon. Gentleman has raised, because the Minister's intervention, which I am sure was meant to be helpful, left the matter clouded in some obscurity. The issue of when the IGC starts is central. If the IGC starts some months before the accession of those countries, of course, there will still be vetoes to be wielded later, but a huge amount of the negotiating dynamic will already have taken place. If the Minister is saying that the accession countries will have full rights to participate in the IGC from the very moment the IGC starts, whenever it starts, that is the reassurance that the House is seeking.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I suggest that we get back to the speech of the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz). There is a time limit on his speech and he does not get extra time for later interventions.
Keith Vaz: I am conscious of my time limit. Therefore, I will speak very fast and leave it to the Minister for Europe to clear up any ambiguity at the end of the debate.
I am concerned about the early-warning letters that have been sent by Commissioner Verheugen, to whom I pay tribute for the work he has done over the past few years. In March he wrote to all the member-designate countries apart from Slovenia, pointing out that there were concerns about the way in which they were negotiating in the run-up to their admission. I hope that the Minister for Europe can give us an assurance in his reply that although these early-warning letters are clearly important, they will not in any way be an obstacle to the completion of membership on 1 May.
When I was in Bydgoszcz, in Poland, last weekend, it became clear that there was concern about criticisms of the dairy industry. It is important that our Government should continue to play a leading role in helping the member-designate countries. During my visit to Poland, I heard about the action plans that have been launched by Ministers over a number of years. We need to
continue to give that practical support. We have the finest diplomats anywhere in the world, and it is really important that the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office continue, through its embassies, to develop links with the member-designate countries, and to ensure that they are given as much support as possible.I disagree with the right hon. Member for Devizes—this country was right not to have a transition so far as the right-to-work provisions are concerned. We heard from the Foreign Secretary about the statistics for Spain. I do not think that there is a great desire on the part of citizens of the 10 applicant countries to come to live in this country and not to return to their countries of origin. Of course, those who wish to participate in our wonderful economy under new Labour would like to come to work here, but their intention is to go back to their countries. Those who currently work under work permits, or who come here as students and are therefore able to work for 20 hours a week, ensure that they send their remittances back to their countries of origin. We were right to act as we did, and Germany was wrong to provide that transition. If we are really talking about these countries as first-class countries and equal partners, the smaller the transition, the better. It is very important that we ensure that they can be accepted as first-class partners.
Whenever the Foreign Secretary speaks, I mention to him the letter that was signed by Chancellor Schröder and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 25 February 2002: the reform agenda that we put forward as our means of trying to ensure that Europe was reformed. I hope that in his reply, the Minister for Europe will tell me how many of the 27 points that I counted in that letter have actually been satisfied. I know that the Foreign Secretary said that he was pleased with progress. We are all pleased with progress, but let us look at the practicalities of the way in which we can make Europe a better place to operate in.
The right hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Mrs. Shephard) talked about the Council of Ministers meeting. Any hon. Member who has been to such meetings will know that we need to make that whole process much more efficient and effective. As the hon. Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton) said, when one attends such a meeting and each one of the 25 countries has to have its little say as to what it thinks policy should be, it goes on for ever and ever—rather like the Nice negotiations, which went on for four days. That caused enormous frustration to all those participating in them, and it was the fact that they lasted four days that gave the Prime Minister the impetus to try to push forward the reform agenda. We certainly need to make sure that Britain is at the forefront of modernising the way in which the European Union operates, because the members-designate want an efficient and effective EU.
We must also ensure that when we have these great summits such as Lisbon and Tampere, we follow up on what we are trying to achieve. The difference between Lisbon and other summit meetings was that it was the first international EU summit in which there were benchmarks as to what Europe should achieve. A particular figure was raised at Lisbon, as it has been subsequently. In the last decade, the United States of America created 10 million new jobs, but Europe managed to create only 1 million new jobs. It is clear that the arrival of the member-designate countries will
ensure that the economic agenda will be moved forward. But as we set such goals at these grand summit meetings, I worry that, although people always say that these summits are a success—as with everything to do with the European Union—we do not follow them up as effectively as we could. The importance of Lisbon and Tampere is that there were benchmarks, and that is what the new members are looking for. They are not looking for wide-ranging woolly debates about where Europe is going. They want a practical solution to the problems that they face—and they do face enormous problems—and I hope that we ensure that that happens.As for Bulgaria, Romania and Turkey, we do of course want all three of those countries in the European Union. I hope that the impetus of getting 10 countries in at the same time will not mean that we neglect the candidacies of these other countries. It is clear that Turkey has a long way to go—everyone agrees that that is so—but we have to move the debate forward; rather than keeping on saying that about Turkey, we need to give some practical support. As far as our embassy in Ankara is concerned, we need to help the Turks, just as we need to help the Bulgarians and the Romanians. One complaint that I have heard in recent months is that the established countries have not given as much support. The French helped Poland, but Poland felt that it might have gone to one of the other countries for assistance. Practical assistance to Bulgaria, Romania and Turkey will make a huge difference.
I want to say just one thing about the debate on the euro. I know that this issue does not relate to the treaty, but it does have a significance; certainly, a number of applicants have mentioned it to me. We had a long discussion about the EU debate on the Convention, which is not part of the treaty either. In terms of the ongoing debate, my visit to Sweden on Monday demonstrated that there is real concern that what should be a clinical decision is turning into a bit of shambles. I would be in favour of the Chancellor's bringing his statement forward, so that there is some clarity. What we say on 9 June will have a dramatic effect on the Swedish referendum. At the moment, the situation is very finely balanced.
I, too, have changed my position, rather like the right hon. Member for Devizes. Of course, the five economic tests need to be assessed, and whatever the Chancellor says I will go along with, because he is much cleverer than I am on these matters and I accept his judgment. In that sense, my position has not changed. However, we should have a referendum on this issue on 14 September, to test public opinion. If we keep on raising expectations on this issue and then dashing them, we will not be in a position to know what the public really feel. So I am not against having a referendum earlier rather than later, and I should certainly like to have one during this Parliament. Whatever the Chancellor's tests are and his assessment is, I will go along with that. But I do not want us to put this issue off until after the next general election. We should be wary—what we say on 9 June is going to have an effect on countries such as Sweden, and, indeed, on the member-designate countries.
This debate is about enlargement. As we all know, this is a slim Bill, but it will have massive consequences. The Prime Minister was right to take the lead on enlargement, but it is also right that we continue to push the reform agenda forward. Having 10 new countries in
without moving that agenda forward will mean that Europe will fail to deliver on the many issues on which we must deliver on behalf of the people of our country, and the people of Europe.
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