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Orders of the Day
Fire Services Bill
[Sir Michael Lord in the Chair]
Clause 1
4.15 pm
Mr. Philip Hammond (Runnymede and Weybridge): I beg to move amendment No. 35, in page 1, line 2, after 'instrument', insert
'within eighteen months of the commencement of this Act'.
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Michael Lord): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments:
No. 31, in page 1, line 2, leave out from 'instrument' to 'fix' in line 4.
No. 34, in page 1, line 6, at end insert—
'(1B) The Secretary of State may by order made by statutory instrument give specific or general directions to fire authorities about the use or disposal of property or facilities.'.
No. 17, in page 2, line 18, at end insert—
'( ) No order shall be made under this section more than two years after the commencement of this Act, except for the purpose of revoking provision contained in a previous order.'.
No. 22, in clause 1, page 2, line 20, leave out from '(1)(a)' to end of line 21 and insert
'may only be made if a draft of the statutory instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament but such a draft shall not be laid for approval unless not less than 14 days previously each House of Parliament shall have debated a draft of the statutory instrument.'.
No. 23, in page 2, line 20, leave out from '(1)(a)' to end of line 21 and insert
'may only be made if a draft of the statutory instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament'.
No. 28, in clause 2, page 2, line 25, at end insert—
'(1A) This Act can only come into force on a date when the following conditions have been met:
(i) The Secretary of State has published a report to the House of Commons, stating his view that the Fire Services Act 2003 is compatible with Article 6 of the European Social Charter.
(ii) The Secretary of State has published a report to the House of Commons, stating his view that an order under the Fire Services Act 2003 would not violate Article 8 of the International Labour Organisation Convention Number 151.'.
No. 29, in page 2, line 25, at end insert—
'(1B) This Act shall cease to have effect fifteen months after the date on which it comes into effect.'.
No. 2, in page 3, line 9, at end insert—
'(4A) The powers conferred by this Act shall cease to have effect eighteen months after the date on which it comes into effect.'.
No. 16, in clause 2, page 3, line 9, at end insert—
'(4A) This Act shall come into force on such a day as the Secretary of State shall by order appoint.
(4B) An order under subsection (4A) above shall be subject to affirmative Resolution by the House of Commons.'.
Mr. Hammond: This broad group of amendments deals, first, with the duration of the powers to be granted to the Secretary of State, and the Committee is spoilt for choice. Amendment No. 29, which was tabled by the Liberal Democrats, proposes that the powers should last for 15 months, whereas amendment No. 17, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) and is, I understand, supported by the Government, proposes two years. We find ourselves, perhaps untypically, between those two extremes, as we suggest 18 months in amendments Nos. 35 and 2.
There is broad agreement that the Bill must be seen as a short-term, defined-life measure to deal with a particular situation in which the country finds itself at this moment. We made it clear on Second Reading that we view the short term and the long term quite differently. We can accept measures to deal with the immediate short-term problems that have arisen in the circumstances in which we find ourselves, but certain matters will have to be dealt with differently over the longer term.
Let us consider the immediate situation that the country faces. The fire service dispute has dragged on for a year; lives are being put at risk and a burden is being placed on the military when our forces are already substantially overstretched, with other potential tasks hurtling at them seemingly from every corner and continent of the world at every moment. So, there are two issues there, but it is also clear that the fire dispute is having a negative impact on the Government's plans to prepare the country properly to defend itself against possible terrorist attacks at home. Nobody in the House can tolerate that.
In relation to anti-terrorist preparations, the Deputy Prime Minister said on Second Reading:
- "If the FBU will not co-operate, the Government will take action to provide that protection against terrorist attack by whatever means necessary."—[Official Report, 8 May 2003; Vol. 404, c. 858.]
We see the Bill, if it has a role, as a time-limited, effective measure—it will be effective, however, only if other amendments, which we and others have tabled, are accepted—to end the dispute, lift the threat of strikes and create a breathing space in which to consider in a less pressurised atmosphere the future organisation of our fire services.
The Bill is not about fairness or any other abstract concept; it is about public safety, which should be the No. 1 consideration of any Government.
Indeed, the imposition of a settlement by the Secretary of State, unilaterally, is a draconian measure that can be justified only in extreme circumstances. We are prepared to acknowledge that the present circumstances are extreme and could justify extreme measures, but if that is the case the measures must be presented effectively, and deliver the objectives that have been set out.
On Second Reading, the Deputy Prime Minister referred repeatedly to an arbitrated settlement. This is, of course, no such thing. The Bill proposes giving the Secretary of State power to impose a settlement that he has devised; he is in no sense an independent or impartial arbitrator. The Bill represents a huge step back from the decentralisation of the fire service that is embraced by the Government's modernisation agenda.
We are in a strange position. A few weeks ago we were asked to vote on the repeal of section 19 of the Fire Services Act 1947, as a result of which the Secretary of State would no longer be involved in, for example, sanctioning the closure of individual fire stations. Now, we are effectively asked to reinstate a power under the 1947 Act that was abolished in 1959—to return the Secretary of State's right to impose a settlement relating to pay and to terms and conditions of employment.
These measures can, however, be justified because of the public safety issues that have arisen—because of the terrorist threat in the short term, and because of the impact on the military, which, given its current overstretch, cannot provide adequate cover during an ongoing dispute in the fire service. The Deputy Prime Minister himself told us that in the event of a future dispute military cover would be reduced from the 19,000 troops that were available during the strikes before Christmas to only 9,000, with 250 fire appliances—or "goddesses", as the Deputy Prime Minister likes to call them—and some 300 further specialist vehicles. Just 250 pumps would be available to cover the entire United Kingdom.
On Second Reading, the Deputy Prime Minister said that the powers that he seeks will enable him to secure a pay and modernisation deal. I reaffirm the Conservatives' strong support for the Bain agenda, linking higher pay to improved productivity; but that agenda will be delivered effectively only if the Bill is amended. It is clear that whether it succeeds or fails, it seeks to settle the current dispute by means that would normally be judged unacceptable because there is no element of independent arbitration. For that reason if for no other, this must be seen as an emergency measure—and an essential feature of an emergency measure is its limited duration. It must, in fact, be limited to the duration of the emergency.
One of the challenges that face us is the task of estimating the likely duration of the present emergency. That task has a number of facets, perhaps the most prominent being the need to deploy large numbers of British troops for peacekeeping duties in Iraq. There is also the possibility that as the war on terrorism unfolds, British troops will be called on for missions elsewhere in the world.
The duration of the Bill should be limited so that more complex—and perhaps, in the longer term, more acceptable—solutions can be adopted, with the benefit of mature consideration: far more consideration than we are able to devote to all the Bill's remaining stages in a single afternoon. We believe that 18 months is probably an adequate initial period for the existence of the proposed powers, although the Government could of course seek to extend it at some future time.
Perhaps the Government intend to support amendment No. 17 because it specifies a different period—two years—or because they find the face of its mover slightly more amenable. If they can make a case for a two-year period, we would certainly accept it and withdraw amendment No. 35. Desperate efforts have been made behind the scenes, involving a roll of sticking plaster and a pair of scissors, and I am sure that it is purely coincidence that it is the chairman of the Labour party trade union liaison committee who happens to have tabled amendment No. 17.
We want the White Paper that the Government have promised to map out a long-term solution to these problems. I doubt whether anybody in this place regards the measures and powers in the Bill as a satisfactory long-term solution to the big issues facing the fire service. We expect the White Paper to map out options in terms of mechanisms for a fair pay determination system in the fire service, and to address the question of the use of strikes as a bargaining tool in an emergency service that is of such vital importance to the safety and security of our communities.
The latest version of the draft agreement—the employer's offer—has become a bit more than an offer; it has been discussed at such length by the two sides that it is in fact the draft of an agreement. The previous draft contained a reference to the White Paper, but it has been expunged from the current draft, which appears to internalise the whole process of developing a mechanism for pay determination and dispute resolution within national joint council procedures. Perhaps the Minister can explain to the Committee the significance of that. We are all waiting with bated breath for the White Paper, but it seems that its significance is being eroded by the minute. I would be greatly reassured if the Minister could confirm that it will address the issues of pay determination, dispute resolution and the possibility of a no-strike environment.
Perhaps the Minister could also tell us when we are likely to see the White Paper. On Second Reading—on 8 May—the Deputy Prime Minister said that we would see it shortly, but the Minister said a few hours later, at the end of the debate, that it would be published in the very near future. I rather felt on that day that we were edging towards it by the hour, but here we are, on 3 June, and still no sight of it. I should be interested to know whether the Minister expects that we will see it before or after 12 June. That might be a fact of some significance, given that the FBU recall conference is meeting on that day.
It is on the basis that a White Paper and a subsequent new fire service Act are coming that we are willing to support this Bill—provided that it is amended to ensure that it is workable and effective. On that basis, consensus has emerged—on both sides of the House, I am delighted to say—in favour of a sunset clause. It would be good if the Minister could confirm that, notwithstanding the changes to the draft agreement, the Government are still going down the route whereby the White Paper will set out the long-term mechanisms for resolution of these issues. The reintroduction of a draconian power, relinquished in 1959, cannot be allowed to be anything other than a temporary measure. This Bill has to be a step on a clear route map to a long-term solution that is both fair to firefighters and secures the safety of the public at all times.
Amendments Nos. 31 and 34—our amendments, Mr. Lord—are essentially drafting changes to accommodate the imposition of a time limit through the mechanism in amendment No. 35, and need not detain the Committee.
Amendments Nos. 22 and 23, tabled by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg), propose that orders under subsection (1)(a) shall be made by affirmative resolution of both Houses following a debate. Amendment No. 16, tabled by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), in, perhaps, a curious alignment with my right hon. and learned Friend, is designed to achieve a similar objective. In view of the draconian nature of the power being exercised and the undoubted level of interest of the Committee in the detail of the order that the Deputy Prime Minister will lay, the requirement for an affirmative rather than a negative procedure—and, indeed, for a debate on the Floor of the House—is not unreasonable. I look forward to hearing my right hon. and learned Friend's speech putting the case for that proposition and also to the Minister's response.
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