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4.45 pm
Mr. Hammond: The hon. Gentleman has drawn the Committee's attention to the fact that the FBU recall conference takes place next week, and he is trying to elicit from the Minister for Local Government and the Regions a commitment that the Bill will, in effect, be scrapped if the conference accepts a settlement. Is it not a curious use of scarce parliamentary time to take up a whole day to push the measure through when it is clear that in 10 days' time we may find that it is otiose? In those circumstances, does not the Bill look more like a negotiating tactic than a genuine piece of legislation?
Mr. Lloyd: That question is probably not best addressed to me, given that I have already expressed reservations about the Bill. Perhaps the official Opposition will join me and others in hoping that there will be a proper settlement that is honourable for the FBU and the people who work in our fire services and, of course, for the Government.
My reason for going along with the Government is that I recognise the steps that the Deputy Prime Minister and the Government have taken during recent weeks to try to bring an end to the issue. That view has also been placed on record by Andy Gilchrist, the general secretary of the FBU. In the end, the whole House should see the issue not as some polemical political game—I regret that there were shades of that in the hon. Gentleman's speech—because it is far too serious for us to be playing party politics and seeking political advantage. This is genuinely a moment for the nation to reflect on the role of Government, and to call on the employers and employees in the fire service to operate in that spirit, as the FBU is now doing.
Mr. Ian Davidson (Glasgow, Pollok): On my hon. Friend's point that the legislation is unnecessary and redundant, has he seen an article in Progress—which, as he knows, is the magazine for true believers—in which the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, whom I remember well when she was a Bolshevik, indicates that the Labour Government risk being thrown from power because they are losing the trust of ordinary people? Is the measure not an example of the Government contributing to that loss of trust by introducing unnecessary and redundant legislation that is widely seen as anti-trade union?
Mr. Lloyd: I confess that I have heard of the magazine Progress, although it has not yet got past my letterbox, or at least not long enough for me to read it.
Mr. Davidson: Like The Watchtower.
Mr. Lloyd: My hon. Friend will be aware of the old adage about political literature: it has to be good enough to be read between the letterbox and the bin. Progress, alas, has not, for whatever reason, made it to that state. Perhaps, as at Passover, certain doors are marked as not to be called at and, for Jehovah's Witnesses and the purveyors of Progress, my door is marked with secret symbols that I do not yet understand. If so, I am only too grateful to those who marked my door.
My right hon. Friend the Minister indicated that he was aware of my hope that the Government would make clear the value of the Bill if there is a proper end to the dispute when the recall conference takes place next week. If we have to revert to using the measure, we shall be in extremely troubled waters. It would pay all of us to use today's debate as an opportunity not to muddy the waters but to lower the political temperature. My right hon. Friend tried to do that during his Second Reading speech and I know that he will do so again today.
I hope that he will resist the voices of those who want to raise the temperature. The Bill is not of itself draconian, but it will be seriously unhelpful and set a difficult precedent for Labour Members at least to stomach. That is why we need a sunset clause.
I place on record my great concern at the remarks of the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge, which should be weighed carefully by all hon. Members. He sought from my right hon. Friend the Minister comments about the role of a ban on strikes in the emergency services. I hope that the official Opposition will now begin to flesh out their views, because we know
where they are going. They would seek a ban on industrial action by those working in the fire service. That would be totally unacceptable not just to Labour Members but to many people throughout the country.
Mr. Lloyd: Before the hon. Gentleman intervenes, may I invite him to make clear how the Opposition would circumscribe those powers? Which trade unions and groups of employees do the Opposition consider part of the emergency services? To whom would a ban on industrial action apply? What sort of penalties would the Opposition impose on those who sought to take industrial action, limited or otherwise? How would those penalties operate? For example, would those in the fire services or elsewhere who took industrial action be jailed? It would be helpful to get answers to those questions on the record.
Mr. Hammond: The hon. Gentleman correctly identifies—it did not take much detective work—that we propose that, if the Bill is going to work, it must have a power for the Secretary of State to impose a no-strike provision. However, our target is specifically and exclusively the fire service in which there is a current dispute and a real threat to public safety. I will not fast forward to the fourth group of amendments, but I suspect that we will have this debate in some detail when we come to them.
I heard what the hon. Gentleman said, but I am sure that he has read the Second Reading debate carefully and noted that the Minister for Local Government and the Regions specifically did not rule out the possibility of a no-strike arrangement as part of the longer-term solution to the fire service settlement. He said that the White Paper would make the Government's thoughts clear. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to press the Minister on that.
Mr. Lloyd: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments, and I shall come to his final point first. He should examine carefully the words of my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister, who was straightforward on Second Reading. I think that he ruled out the idea of a prohibition on industrial action. It is up to Conservative Members to press my right hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and the Regions, but I take the view that such a prohibition would be unachievable. There are many practical difficulties attached to bans on industrial action.
It is difficult to take seriously the idea that the Opposition would seek to ban strikes in only one part of the emergency services and that they would not use such a ban as a precedent for the rest. There is no logic to their position. It is ridiculous to suggest a ban for the fire service but not for other emergency services. That shows the difference between the Opposition's position and that of the Government and Labour Members.
The sunset clause is designed for a difficult Bill that I do not want on the statute book. I hope that next week will see the end of the talk about the Bill. However, the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge is suggesting that the Conservative party will campaign for legislation that would impose, come what may, a ban
on industrial action by the FBU and those in the fire service. The Opposition are not seeking a sunset clause but a way to halt this Bill so that they could introduce something massively more draconian. That is the message that will go out today. There is a world of difference between the Government, who have their own view, and the Opposition who would seek to implement such legislation on a virtually permanent basis.
Angela Watkinson (Upminster): I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows from the national news yesterday about the large fire at Waitrose in Finchley that required the attendance of 100 firefighters and 25 pumps. Does he agree that, had the fire service been on strike, there would have been considerable difficulty in amassing 25 green goddesses to deal with the emergency? For that reason, while the Army is recovering after the war in Iraq, it is important that the fire service is not allowed to go on strike.
Mr. Lloyd: That was a churlish remark because the FBU and the serving personnel who put out the fire in Finchley yesterday did not take industrial action during the Iraq crisis. Rather than again trying to increase difficulties, the hon. Lady should reflect on the fact that the best thing would be for the recall conference to bring the dispute to an end next week. Conservative Members do not want that to happen because they want to increase political difficulties. They want political advantage at the expense of the public because they hope, in their narrow way, that the Government are on the defensive. That approach cannot be in the nation's interest.
Mr. Hammond: The hon. Gentleman speaks from the Back Benches but I hope that the Minister recognises that the Opposition have tried to co-operate with the Government in dealing with the crisis. I have made it clear on many occasions—and I do so again—that Conservative Members fervently hope that the outcome of the 12 June recall conference is a vote for the employers' offer that is on the table. That would be the best outcome for everyone, and it is wrong for the hon. Gentleman to suggest that Conservative Members do not want that to happen.
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