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Mr. Lloyd: That is helpful because it means that I do not have to tell people up and down the land that the Conservative party wants to continue industrial difficulties or that it is in the habit of provoking such things and seeking political advantage from them. Of course, I shall still have to tell people that the official position of the Conservative party is to try to ban people in the emergency services from taking industrial action—it is well worth ensuring that that message goes out.
I shall draw my remarks to a conclusion, entertaining though the debate has been for me. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister will make a further thing clear: the Bill must reach a conclusion in a finite time, even if it is successful. We can argue about different time periods but, frankly, I do not think that the periods on offer today are helpful or necessary because we will be in a very different situation after 15 months, 18 months or
two years. I hope that we will find an answer to the problem in 10 days, not two years. Nevertheless, it is important for the Government to send a clear signal that they will dismantle the legislation. In that light, I hope that my right hon. Friend accepts the necessity of introducing a sunset clause.
Matthew Green (Ludlow): My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) would have been speaking at this point but he is absent because he has had to attend the funeral of a close family member.
The major amendments in the group would add sunset clauses to the Bill. There are three time periods on offer: our 15-month period, the Conservatives' 18-month period and the two-year period suggested by the hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd). The Government seem to be minded to accept one of the amendments and I suspect that they will err toward their friendly face on the Back Benches, although that will be more for party political reasons than because of specific differences among the seven-month range on offer. However, it would be welcome if they accept one amendment because it is better to have a sunset clause than not to have one at all. We will be grateful if they accept the purpose of such a clause.
We would have welcomed its inclusion at the outset. Much of the debate on Second Reading was on that very issue and we could have moved on to more substantive matters had that become clearer earlier.
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It is obvious that a sunset clause is necessary. Ministers were reluctant to introduce the Bill. We do not blame them for that, and perhaps it should not even have reached this stage. The best sunset that it could have is for the FBU to accept the settlement on 12 June. I hope that the Government will say that they do not intend to proceed further with the Bill if that happens.
I especially hope that the FBU accepts the settlement because one group in particular has been penalised by the dispute. The retained firemen—
Mr. Hammond: I did not mean to interrupt the hon. Gentleman mid-sentence. The Minister might decide to enlighten the House on the Government's position if the vote goes their way on 12 June, but simply getting the conference to agree to the settlement on offer is not the same as getting the settlement, with all its ramifications, implemented. I caution the Committee on taking the view that all problems will be solved in all areas if the conference agrees the offer on the table.
Matthew Green: There is broad agreement that the preferable solution is a negotiated settlement. The Bill is a draconian last resort and we do not want it pursued if it is clear that a negotiated settlement is proceeding. It is not in the interests of that negotiated settlement to rush the Bill through. The hon. Gentleman is in great danger of sending out the wrong signal to the firemen. We want them to take a rational and sensible decision on the offer on the table.
The hon. Gentleman touched on the absence of the White Paper. The amendments relate to several aspects of the Bill and we would have welcomed publication of
the White Paper. The imminence of the White Paper is apparently pressing every time it is spoken about, but we still have not seen it. I wonder whether its publication is being delayed until after the 12th. It would at least be open and accountable government if the Minister were to let us know that it will miraculously appear on the 13th after the FBU conference.
Mr. David Drew (Stroud): I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but he was about to mention retained firefighters before the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) intervened. One has to accept that there is usually some rancour between the two unions, but it is my understanding that retained firefighters are strongly behind the FBU. Many of its concerns have received a degree of support from retained firefighters.
Matthew Green: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for bringing me back to that point. I was about to say that retained firefighters are some of the people who have suffered most from the dispute. They have not received pay award increases because they have been held back during the dispute. I am not sure where the hon. Gentleman has talked to retained firemen, but in my constituency, where all the firemen are retained, they have a bit of sympathy with some measures that the FBU has pursued, but they do not have sympathy overall with the way in which its leadership has handled the dispute. Not much has been said about the unfortunate position in which the Retained Firefighters Union finds itself. It cannot negotiate with employers and the FBU negotiates on its behalf. That is an odd situation because retained firefighters might not have the same concerns.
I hope that the White Paper will herald a shift away from that approach.
We have a great deal of sympathy for amendments Nos. 22 and 23, which would ensure that if the procedures were needed, an affirmative resolution of both Houses of Parliament and a debate on the Floor of this House would be required. Given what hon. Members on both sides of the House have described as the draconian nature of the Bill, that is a minimum requirement.
The Conservative Front-Bench spokesman chose to rubbish amendment No. 28. The Conservatives appear to have spent more time discussing that amendment than any of the ones that they tabled, so they are clearly glad that the Liberal Democrats tabled it. Perhaps they got excited because the amendment contains the word "European"—it was probably a red rag to a bull.
The purpose of amendment No. 28 is to draw attention to the fact that the Joint Committee on Human Rights has alerted to the Government to two potential conflicts arising from the Bill, the first with article 6 of the European social charter 1961. I acknowledge that, at the end of Second Reading, the Minister touched on the potential conflict with the International Labour Organisation convention, and to some extent he dealt with the European social charter, but I do not think that he has fully answered the concerns that have been raised.
Under article 31(1) of the European social charter, restrictions or limitations are permitted if they are
- "prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others or for the protection of public interest, national security, public health, or morals."
The amendment also deals with article 8 of the ILO labour relations (public services) convention No. 151 1978, to which the UK has signed up. Exemptions from the guarantees provided in the convention cover high-level policy-making or managerial personnel, employees whose duties are of a highly confidential nature, and the armed forces and the police. There is no exemption for members of the fire services—they are not mentioned. The Government may argue that the article does not prevent them from imposing a solution if collective bargaining has failed to produce agreement, but the Bill will not restrict the use of the power to make orders in circumstances in which collective bargaining has been attempted but has failed to produce a satisfactory result within a reasonable time, so it is possible that an order will be made in circumstances that give rise to a violation of article 8 of the ILO convention.
The Minister might say that those circumstances will not arise, but clearly the Joint Committee did not raise those concerns lightly. Until today, no substantive comment has been made on the Floor of the House about the two concerns.
We were right to table the amendment, with a view to ensuring that the Government at least address the concerns that have been raised. We await the Government's reaction. Overall, the sunset clause is the most critical. We do not want the Bill to contain an open-ended power that can be used by the Government or future Administrations in unnecessary circumstances. We hope that there is agreement across the Floor of the House and that the Government have seen the light. Perhaps I should say that they see the light ending. We look forward to their acceptance of the sunset clause.
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