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John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington): I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) that it is important that we say nothing today that will jeopardise the opportunity of a negotiated settlement next week, despicable though the Bill is as an attack on trade union rights, but I will put that to one side.
My amendment does not provide for a sunset clause, although I support amendments that contain such clauses. Indeed, I support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central.
Amendment No. 16 provides a trigger clause. I remember my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister saying in the House that he was the only Secretary of State to introduce a Bill that he did not want to see implemented. He said that in the hope that the negotiations would lead to a settlement before there was a need to introduce legislation, to finalise it and eventually to gain Royal Assent. I drafted an amendment in that spirit.
Before the Act is implemented, my amendment would require the Secretary of State to return to the House with an order that the House would have to determine by affirmative resolution. Obviously, negotiations would continue. The Secretary of State would have the opportunity to return to the House with a report on the progress of those negotiations, on the basis of whether they were satisfactory for the employer and employee and for the Government overall, and therefore representatives of the community overall. My amendment is in the spirit of the Deputy Prime Minister's approach to this legislation. Indeed, my right hon. Friend was applauded for his conciliatory approach during the debate that took place in May.
Mr. Hammond: I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman's premise that it would be good to determine the order by affirmative resolution. I can assure him that whatever he does, when the order is made by negative resolution, he can be certain that the official Opposition will pray against it, whatever it says, good or bad, to ensure that there is a proper debate.
John McDonnell: I welcome the hon. Gentleman's comments. We should ensure that we should have a debate whenever we can.
The purpose of my amendment is to enable my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister to report back to the House. We can then determine whether the Bill is necessary and whether it should be enacted and implemented. It would provide an opportunity for the Government to get off the hook, because the Bill has ramifications that go wider than the fire service. Indeed, it has ramifications for overall trade union rights. It could set a precedent—not, I hope, for this Government—for other Governments who may wish to introduce legislation to impose settlements in other disputes. As soon as we go down that slope, we start to undermine some basic human rights that the Labour party has campaigned for since its inception. Other parties that are represented in the House have also signed up to them in terms of national legislation and European-wide legislation.
I will not press my amendment to a Division, but the purpose behind it is to try to help the Government to get off the hook, given the intemperate legislation that they have introduced, and to do so before that legislation is implemented. We hope that there is a settlement and that the proposed legislation will not be necessary. However, if the Government wish to proceed, I shall certainly support the sunset clause that has been proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central.
5.15 pm
Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham): I support what the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) has just said, at least in part, because I can sympathise with his amendment No. 16.
I support the sunset clause. I hope the Government will accept the amendment moved by the hon. Member for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd), which I understand is their intention. I am slightly surprised that such a provision was not written into the Bill, but on the principle of welcoming a sinner that repenteth, I suppose we should not be too churlish and grumble now, though I am very surprised that we are having a Committee stage on the Floor of the House rather than having the Prime Minister making a statement, as was requested in points of order, but that is a wider matter that I shall not address now.
My amendment No. 23 is the standard affirmative procedure resolution. Amendment No. 22 is not, and I shall explain in a moment why I tabled it. We need first to understand the extensive nature of the powers set out in clause 1. There are three substantive powers in that clause on which we need to focus. First, it gives the Secretary of State a unilateral power to vary contracts of employment. In other words, the Secretary of State can by unilateral action change contracts of employment already in place. That is a wide power.
Secondly, under clause 1(1)(b) the Secretary of State can direct the disposal of property of which he is not the owner. Again, that is a pretty wide power. Lastly, though perhaps not surprisingly given that it emanates from the Government, clause 1(2)(c) includes the power to impose charges on third parties. Those are extensive powers—the power unilaterally to vary a contract of employment, the power to direct the disposal of property and the power to impose financial burdens, all at the fiat of the Secretary of State. We need to ask ourselves what fetters and constraints are imposed on the Secretary of State. Precious few, is the answer.
I recognise, of course, that the negative procedure is envisaged by the Bill, and I shall say a word about that in a moment. I acknowledge that the Bill contains provisions for consultation—consultation with lots of people, rather unspecified, but not with the House. The House is cut out of the process, save by the negative procedure, notwithstanding the fact that we are dealing with the variation of contracts, the disposal of property and the imposition of financial burdens. The one set of people who do not have a decisive say is us, the representatives of the people—not surprising, as I say, coming from this Government.
Those are the problems that my amendments are designed to address. Amendment No. 23 is the standard affirmative resolution procedure—that is to say, the statutory instruments cannot become law unless they are approved in both Houses of Parliament. That, I should have thought, was the very minimum that the House would wish to require of the Government. However, it does not address the real problem.
Affirmative resolutions are just affirmative resolutions of statutory instruments, and statutory instruments are not amendable. They can be rejected in their entirety or approved in their entirety. What the House does not have the power to do is to amend a
statutory instrument, by adjusting its terms, deleting part of it or inserting something else in it. It is an extraordinarily imperfect method of controlling what is effectively legislation.That is the reason for my amendment No. 22. Very occasionally—I regret to say, very occasionally—Governments lay before Parliament a draft of the statutory instrument before Parliament is asked to vote on it, so that there can be a debate, sometimes 14 and sometimes 21 days before the substantive discussion. That gives hon. Members an opportunity to make a point about the statutory instrument and, hopefully, affect the outcome.
That is a pretty miserable way of controlling government itself, but it is the only mechanism that parliamentary procedure currently allows. We should give ourselves the power to amend statutory instruments just as we amend Bills, but we have not done so and we must use the procedures that are available to us. Amendment No. 22 would use one of the few methods that is open to us.
Using the amendment, I would wish to argue the case for imposing on members of the fire brigade unions a prohibition on the right to strike. I certainly think that that is a proper issue to discuss, as it was in respect of the police service. After all, the police regulations and the Police Act 1996—incidentally, their terms are replicated in new clauses 1 and 2, which were not selected for discussion—prohibit such action in respect of the police. I see no possible justification for members of the fire brigade to go on strike at any time. I think that it is very reprehensible indeed that, in pursuit of an industrial action, they should put at risk the life and property of their fellow citizens. I think that that is quite wrong.
Matthew Green: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman see that argument as extending to other bodies, such as the ambulance service?
Mr. Hogg: I would not say no as a matter of principle, as I would regard each class on its merits. We are now talking about the fire brigade, to which I shall confine my remarks, but that does not mean that I would not make the same comment about other services in appropriate circumstances. I would treat each on its own merits.
Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy): Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman think again about what he said about putting lives at risk? During the strike, adequate cover was provided and, to be fair, when FBU members were called upon, they broke the strike to avoid that outcome.
Mr. Hogg: I am perfectly prepared to accept that members of the fire brigade broke their strike and came out to help on a number of occasions, but one cannot seriously say as a matter of general principle that members of the fire brigade do not put at risk the lives of their fellow citizens or their property if they go on strike. That is the inevitable consequence of strike action and I happen to think that it is profoundly wrong. I think that this House should have a proper opportunity to debate that. Speaking for myself, I would like such prohibitions to be incorporated in statute law.
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