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Valerie Davey (Bristol, West): Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Raynsford: I will give way to my hon. Friend in a moment, but I want to make a little more progress. It is important for the time scale to be fully understood.
A time limit of 18 months would last to around the end of 2004, assuming that the Bill receives Royal Assent this summer. That sounds a long time away and it might just allow sufficient time for any Bill introduced in the next Session—one designed to implement the White Paper policies—to come into effect, although that could not be guaranteed if the parliamentary passage of such a Bill were prolonged. With a 15-month time limit, there would be a serious risk of those powers lapsing before any Bill setting out our long-term strategic framework even received Royal Assent, let alone came into effect.
We should also bear in mind the fact that the fire service pay settlement date is November each year. The deal now on the table would change that by bringing the date forward to July, but if it were not accepted—of course, the powers in the Bill are designed for a situation in which there is no negotiated settlement—we would face the possibility of having to make an award not only for November 2002 and November 2003, but perhaps for November 2004. If we were in that situation, it would not help to be working against an 18-month time limit that ran out in December or January, and certainly not a 15-month time limit that ran out in September or October.
In any event, experience has taught us that we need a back-stop. Fire service reform and the legislation that that entails are Government priorities. The Bill should be a stop-gap that enables us to deal with the immediate future, but does not tackle all the long-term challenges. At the moment, there are grounds for optimism about the outcome of negotiations between the employers and the FBU. We may not even need to use these powers at all. As we have always made clear, that is our hope.
I respond to my hon. Friends the Members for Manchester, Central (Mr. Lloyd) and for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley) by saying that the Deputy Prime Minister and I have clearly indicated on many occasions that our objective is that there should be a negotiated settlement and that if that is achieved we will
not need to use the powers in the Bill. That is a clear commitment. This is a stop-gap. We hope that it will not be necessary to use these powers.
Mr. Hammond: I would be grateful if the Minister clarified the distinction between not using the powers and abandoning the Bill, because it seems to me to be important. It is perfectly possible that on 12 June the offer will be accepted, but that we will find further down the line in some areas, although perhaps not all, that there are difficulties with implementing the changes in working conditions that are integral to the offer.
Mr. Raynsford: The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly fair point that is obviously in our mind. There have been worries over the past few months that agreements appeared to be on the verge of being reached, but were not achieved. There may well be areas that are less enthusiastic about reaching an agreement than others. I sincerely hope that an agreement is reached, that next week's recall conference votes decisively in favour of what is a good offer from the employers, and that there will be wholehearted commitment to implementing the agreement. Of course, it would be foolish of us to assume that that will be the case.
As I have made clear, we believe that there is a need for provision to cope with the circumstances between now and the implementation of the Bill that will give effect to our White Paper proposals, which is why I have said that the 18-month and 15-month periods are probably too short. So I confirm our belief that this Bill should proceed to the statute book, but we do not intend to invoke its powers if there is a settlement and it is implemented in the way that we all hope it will be.
Matthew Green: Do not the Minister's remarks disagree with the Deputy Prime Minister's earlier statements? The Deputy Prime Minister said that, if there were a settlement, the Government would not need to proceed with the Bill.
Mr. Raynsford: No. My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister has made clear on many occasions his earnest hope that he will not need to use these powers, which is different from saying that he does not want the Bill to be enacted. We believe that the Bill is necessary.
Valerie Davey : Earlier, my right hon. Friend made it very clear that the Bill was intended to deal with the current dispute and its immediate aftermath. I understood him then to say that he needed it as a back-stop for implementation of the White Paper. That surely flies in the face of the trust that we need in order to secure a settlement by agreement. I am sorry to return to this issue, but is the Bill intended to deal with the immediate dispute—which was my impression—or to enable the White Paper to be implemented?
Mr. Raynsford: Let me try to explain. This is an important issue, and the two elements are closely related.
The offer from the employers involves a settlement over two and a half years, during which modernisation will fund much of the cost of the firefighters' increased pay, which will be given in three stages. The two must go
hand in hand. Without implementation, the employers would clearly find it impossible to meet the commitment to increased pay. That is why the period after agreement is closely, and rightly, associated with our current position.As I have made plain to the Committee, in parallel with that we intend to publish in the near future a White Paper providing a modern framework for the fire service. We recognise that the current arrangements, which date back to 1947, are out of date in many respects and need to be reformed. The White Paper will set out our vision for the future of the fire service. We intend to seek legislation at the earliest opportunity after that, but, as my hon. Friend knows, it cannot happen quickly.
John McDonnell: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Raynsford: I am trying to answer the important question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, West (Valerie Davey). I will give way in a moment.
The implementation of the subsequent Bill is likely to take at least until the end of the 18-month period specified in the amendment. If it were delayed, there would be a hiatus between the lapsing of this Bill and the implementation of the new one. We do not think that that would be healthy or sensible. We think that the new framework for the fire service should be introduced as early as possible, but that the lapsing of this Bill should not precede that.
John McDonnell: I am trying to be constructive. Can my right hon. Friend explain why the combination of a sunset and a trigger clause does not satisfy his requirements and those of the Deputy Prime Minister? A sunset clause recognises that the Bill will lapse in due course. A trigger clause gives the Government an opportunity to say, "We will not implement this legislation unless we have a difficulty. Then we will come back to the House, explain the difficulty, and if necessary proceed to implementation."
Mr. Raynsford: If my hon. Friend will bear with me, I shall deal with that when I deal with his amendment, which seeks to introduce such a trigger clause. He stressed that the amendment had been tabled in a constructive spirit, and I hope to respond in the same spirit.
As I have said, we know from experience that recommendations to conference from the FBU executive are not always accepted. We would rightly be open to criticism from Members, and indeed from the wider public, if in 15 or 18 months we found ourselves facing further disruption and frustration, but without the powers in the Bill. A two-year time limit would, we believe, provide more certainty. I am pleased to say that we will therefore accept amendment No. 17, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Central.
In addition to providing a sunset clause to a realistic time scale, his amendment has the added benefit of permitting the Secretary of State to revoke orders made under the Bill after its order-making power has ceased to have effect, should that be necessary.
5.45 pmOpposition Members have suggested that only the power to fix or to modify conditions of service should be time limited, so that the Secretary of State can continue to give directions to fire authorities about the use of property or facilities after 18 months have elapsed following Royal Assent. That is not appropriate either, for the reasons that I gave earlier. The White Paper and consequent substantive legislation will address the Secretary of State's relationship with the fire authorities in the round.
Mr. Hammond: I may have missed something, but although amendment No. 35 may have that effect, amendment No. 2 clearly states:
- "The powers conferred by this Act shall cease to have effect eighteen months after the date on which it comes into effect."
Amendments Nos. 22 and 23 deal with the parliamentary procedure for making orders under the Bill and are, as we heard from the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg), alternatives. Both require orders made under clause 1(1)(a), on conditions of service, to be approved by a resolution of both Houses. However, amendment No. 22 would require that an order also be debated in draft by each House not even than 14 days before it was laid. I heard the justification advanced by the right hon. and learned Gentleman—that that would allow amendment of a statutory instrument that would otherwise not be possible. However, such orders would be made only in circumstances where there was a serious short-term need for action because of—as the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge rightly pointed out—a potential risk to the public.
The powers contained in clause 1(1)(b) in particular, relating to the deployment of equipment and appliances in the interest of public safety, would need to be used very quickly indeed. That is why, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman will understand, we have not made provision for parliamentary approval of those powers. If there were a process whereby the powers could be used to ensure that aerial appliances or other firefighting equipment that otherwise might not be made available could be made available in a hurry, he would find it difficult to justify a procedure involving two—
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