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Mr. Raynsford: I shall give way to the right hon. and learned Gentleman in a moment; I am trying to explain my reason for not accepting his amendment. The public would find it odd that not just this House but the other House was expected to debate, on two separate occasions, whether it was appropriate for the Secretary of State to use those powers to ensure the deployment of fire appliances to protect public safety and save people's
lives. I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will accept that that rather elaborate procedure simply would not be appropriate in such circumstances.
Mr. Hogg: The right hon. Gentleman has focused on the power to order the deployment of facilities of various kinds. Of course, the argument that he advances does not apply to the power to
- "fix or modify the conditions of service",
Mr. Raynsford: With the greatest of pleasure, because, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows, in terms of the power to fix conditions of service there is a separate requirement—an obligation on the Secretary of State to undertake consultation. So there will be a full opportunity for the views of those most closely involved—including those working in the fire service, the employers and the public—to express their views before any decision is taken. I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman regards that as appropriate.
We are openly seeking these powers on a temporary basis, so the procedures laid down will have only a limited life. As I have said, we will set out in the forthcoming White Paper our longer-term strategy.
If amendment No. 16 were accepted, the Bill would be commenced by order, which would be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. As currently drafted, the legislation would commence on enactment and the order-making powers would be immediately available to the Secretary of State. Subject to the Bill's other provisions—such as those on consultation, to which I have just referred—the Secretary of State would be able to make a pay award or give directions to fire authorities straight away. I believe that that is desirable, for the reasons that I have outlined.
It would mean that firefighters could receive their pay award relatively quickly. The hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) rightly pointed out that many retained firefighters have not received a pay increase since November 2001 and, quite reasonably, feel aggrieved about it. Many have not been involved in the dispute, and with the prospect of continued protracted delay much can be said in favour of taking action to ensure that firefighters receive a pay increase relatively quickly.
Secondly, in the event of further strikes, the Secretary of State might need to give urgent directions to a fire authority to ensure that property and facilities are available to those providing emergency cover in order properly to protect the public. The amendment would inevitably cause delay, frustrating the wishes of many firefighters to receive a pay award and placing the public at unnecessary risk.
Amendment No. 28 deals with human rights, about which hon. Members are understandably concerned.
John McDonnell: I am incredulous about the process that the Minister suggests would encompass delay. He makes two specific points, the first of which is about the pay award. If agreement is reached next week, will the Secretary of State determine the pay award under the
Bill, or will previous negotiation procedures apply? If the new legislation applies, we would have to wait for it to pass through the House of Lords before we could proceed with the pay award. I thought that current negotiations related to current negotiating practices and that an award could be agreed on that basis.Secondly, if disputes arise in future, are we suggesting that the Secretary of State would not have time to discuss the matter, produce a report and decide whether the legislation should be implemented? Disputes can arise without necessarily incurring delay. The Government are not suggesting real practical problems and the trigger mechanism would assist rather than obstruct the resolution of future disputes.
Mr. Raynsford: It has always been clear that our objective is to secure a negotiated settlement. If such a settlement is secured, it will proceed and the powers in the Bill will neither be needed nor used. If a negotiated settlement is reached, there is no question of the Bill causing delay. If it is not, many firefighters have waited a long time for a pay settlement and might welcome a settlement being imposed quickly in preference to further prolonged negotiation and discussion, which the amendment would require.
Secondly, if the dispute were to continue without agreement being reached, strike action could take place at seven days' notice. My hon. Friend will know the relevant industrial relations legislation that applies. In those circumstances and in the light of evidence that the Deputy Prime Minister provided to the House a month ago about the limited ability of military personnel to cope with such an emergency, having powers in place to ensure that facilities are available to protect the public—the public have paid for them—is surely an overriding requirement. It would be perverse to prevent the Secretary of State from using such powers urgently to protect the public interest.
John McDonnell: The amendment is not designed to prevent the Secretary of State from using the powers, but to enable him to report back to the House so that the House can decide whether to activate them. Are we saying that the House could not clear the decks to deal with an order presented to it? A statement would be made to the House in any case. I simply do not understand what the practical problems are; they seem to be invented. The purpose of the amendment is to get the Secretary of State off the hook and abide by the spirit of the Deputy Prime Minister's commitment to the House that he did not want the legislation enacted.
Mr. Raynsford: I have to tell my hon. Friend that the Deputy Prime Minister's concern is different: he wants to ensure that he has the power to act expeditiously if necessary to protect the public. I am sure that my hon. Friend can envisage agreement not being reached next week—though I hope it will be—and the dispute rumbling on for another couple of months with the threat of strike action during the summer recess. In those circumstances, no mechanism would be available other than the recall of Parliament to allow the Secretary of State to use his powers, which is clearly an unsatisfactory position.
Mr. Hammond: The Minister may have made a slip of the tongue in that exchange. He said that if a settlement
were reached, the powers would not be used. I am sure that he would want to clarify that, because he said earlier that the powers would not be used if a settlement were both reached and implemented. Surely he would want to retain the ability to use the powers.
Mr. Raynsford: I made that clear earlier and it is our wish to see a settlement reached and implemented. In responding to my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, West, I highlighted the fact that the settlement depended on pay and modernisation going hand in hand. That has applied for two and half years. The two have to be linked and implementation has to proceed to be fully honoured.
Human rights are, as I said, a matter of concern to hon. Members on both sides of the House, so it might be helpful if I explain the Government's thinking in some detail.
My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister made it clear from the outset that he believed that the Bill was compatible with the European convention on human rights. The Joint Committee on Human Rights carried out an initial examination of the Bill and its report recorded its provisional view that it is compatible with the convention. The Joint Committee did, however, raise concerns about the compatibility of the Bill with two conventions, neither of which is incorporated into UK law. The first is the European social charter, article 6 of which is designed to ensure the effectiveness of the right to collective bargaining. The Bill does nothing to interfere with the right of the fire service to engage in collective bargaining, and nothing to make it less effective. In fact, we all wish that it had been more effective than it has been over the last 12 months.
Mr. Hogg: The Bill may not have that effect, but the regulations introduced under it may have. Clause 1(1)(a) makes it absolutely clear that regulations can determine pay and conditions, contrary to the outcome of negotiations.
Mr. Raynsford: As I was about to say, and as the right hon. and learned Gentleman will understand, many of us wish that the collective bargaining procedures had been more effective. The dispute began more than a year ago when the claim was lodged. Sadly, despite frequent efforts to find ways of bringing the two sides together, securing a negotiated solution has so far proved unsuccessful. I hope, as does the whole House, that next week the Fire Brigades Union recall conference will agree to the latest offer of the employers—a good and generous offer and a good basis for ensuring a good future for the fire service and a sound settlement for firefighters. We hope that there will be no need to use the powers in the Bill. However, in the event of no agreement being reached, it cannot be right to allow the position to continue. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman and the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge repeatedly emphasised, the public could be put at risk. In those circumstances, it is right to ensure that effective action can be taken to safeguard the public.
I would draw attention to the fact that rights under the charter are not absolute. Article 31 permits some restrictions or limitations, if they are
- "prescribed by law and necessary in a democratic society for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others or for the protection of public interest, national security, public health, or morals".
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