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John McDonnell: I shall speak to amendments Nos. 9, 10 and 15, which are tabled in my name. However, I set the amendments to one side because the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) referred to my offensive view of the world. I do not think that I have ever had a conversation with the hon. Gentleman—I offer him the opportunity to have that conservation now. If he was alluding to recent reports in The Sun, Daily Mail, or The Daily Telegraph, may I suggest that he reads my article in today's edition of The Guardian before he has a conversation with me, rather than making such allegations?
Amendments Nos. 9 and 10 were not designed to be wrecking amendments. If the Bill had become permanent legislation without the sunset clause that we
have just agreed, it would have been the permanent negotiating machinery for the fire service in the future. The amendments would have introduced the requirement for a negotiated settlement before any order was brought forward—it is as simple as that. The amendments are no longer relevant because I hope that the implementation of the sunset clause will allow us to return to the normal negotiating process. Amendment No. 10 would have ensured that a report would be laid before Parliament on the views of the negotiating body on any proposal for an order. I thought that that would enhance the democratic process.I do not understand why amendment No. 15 is offensive. It would ensure only that the organisation that represented the workers in the industry would be the organisation representing the majority of the workers.
Mr. Hammond: My reading of the amendment is that it refers to the employers' representatives, not the workers' representatives.
John McDonnell: If that is the case, it is due to inaccurate drafting. The drafting was undertaken with the advice of the drafting Clerk. The word "majority" is meant to refer to the employees' overall representation—the majority union. There may well be a printing error. The words "some or all" in clause 2 will allow employees to be represented by a minority organisation. The amendment would ensure that the employees, at least, would be represented by the majority membership organisation. I cannot understand why that is offensive or undemocratic in any way.
6.45 pm
Mr. Raynsford: We have had an interesting debate that was enlivened by an interchange between the hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) and the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond). The hon. Member for Ludlow referred to people who were elected by a minority of votes cast and the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge acutely and cruelly reminded him that he had been elected by a minority—the majority of people had voted against him. I did a little research and I can tell the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge that he is in the same position, because the majority of electors in his constituency voted against him. I am saying that from a fairly solid position because I know that he cannot say the same about me.
Mr. Hammond: As the Minister has done his research so well, will he share with the Committee the size of the majorities that voted against the hon. Member for Ludlow and me?
Mr. Raynsford: I shall not go into enormous detail because I fear that I will be out of order, but I concede that the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge secured 47 per cent. of the electorate in his constituency, which was a higher percentage than that secured by the hon. Member for Ludlow but a lesser percentage than the 60 per cent. secured by the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr. Raynsford).
It has been made clear that the amendments address two separate issues: the role of secret ballots and the steps that it is reasonable for the Secretary of State to take before using the powers that the Bill will confer on him. I shall address the issues in turn.
We believe that secret ballots are a fundamental part of good industrial relations. Only industrial action that has the support of a ballot is protected under trade union legislation. It is well known that the Fire Brigades Union held a secret ballot before it embarked on the dispute in which a large majority of its members voted in favour of action. However, the union did not hold a ballot on whether to accept a particular offer, but on whether to take strike action. I do not hold that against the union because it was in line with section 229 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, which requires that a ballot should contain a question about strike action or industrial action short of a strike.
The FBU has not balloted its members about any of the latest offers made by the employers. We should bear it in mind that the employers' offer at the time the ballot was held was only 4 per cent. over one year. The employers more recently offered 16 per cent. over two and a half years. We have repeatedly made clear our view that the FBU should put the employers' latest offer to a secret ballot of its members so that ordinary firefighters have the opportunity to make up their minds in private. The kind of collective meetings that are held to gauge opinion do not guarantee the fundamental principle of democracy that people should be able to express their view in a secret ballot. However, we have no plans to legislate to require the FBU to hold a secret ballot. Such an approach would mean treating the FBU differently from every other trade union, and there is no logical reason for doing that.
Mr. Hammond: Will the Minister acknowledge that amendment No. 32 does not propose doing such a thing? It proposes giving the Secretary of State the discretionary power to order a secret ballot of all fire brigade members, not members of one or another union.
Mr. Raynsford: I am well aware of that and I shall come on to the problems highlighted by that approach and the problems implicit in the ballot proposals made by the hon. Member for Ludlow.
Let me address the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge first. Amendment No. 25 would mean that the Secretary of State could make an order only if a secret ballot of all fire brigade members on an employers' offer had been held in the previous three months. One problem with that is that there is no mechanism for a secret ballot of all fire brigade members. The FBU could ballot all its members, but not those who are members of other unions or of none.
Mr. Hammond: Amendment No. 25 is a Liberal Democrat amendment. The hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) will have to answer for its defects. I shall answer for the defects of amendment No. 32 in due course.
Mr. Raynsford: I apologise unreservedly. I have confused the order of the amendments because amendment No. 25 comes before amendment No. 32.
The problem with the Liberal Democrat proposal is that there is no mechanism by which a ballot of all members could be held. Other unions are involved and they could ballot their members, but they are not party to the negotiating body. Whether that is right or not is a different matter, but that is the situation and strictly speaking no offer can be made to them by the employers. It is not easy to understand how they could be asked to express a view when they are not party to an offer.
Matthew Green: Those unions may not be party to the negotiations, but they will receive the benefits or otherwise of the settlement that is either negotiated or not, and it is right that they should be balloted as well. The amendment might not provide for how that ballot should be carried out, but it is not impossible for the Secretary of State to get the names and addresses of those people who work in the fire brigade.
Mr. Raynsford: There may be a perfectly good justification, as an academic exercise, to test the views of all the people who work in the fire service, including those who are members of other unions such as the GMB, Unison, the National Association of Fire Officers and the Retained Firefighters Union, but that is not relevant to the negotiating procedure. We have said throughout the debate that we hope for a satisfactory outcome to the negotiations that have been going on for more than a year to resolve the dispute. The amendment would not help to resolve the dispute through the agreed negotiating procedure. Perhaps the procedure is not satisfactory and contains inequities that the hon. Gentleman might want to change, but we have to deal with the existing machinery.
Mr. Hammond: I suspect that the Minister will apply the same criticism to my amendment. I recognise that what he is saying is true, but as far as I am concerned the purpose of the ballot is twofold: to test opinion and to make that opinion widely known before the Secretary of State intervenes with his leaden-booted power to impose a settlement, and to create an environment in which the Secretary of State's own proposed solution can be given legitimacy. If the vast majority of members of fire brigades accept a settlement, the Secretary of State would have a good basis on which to impose it. The militants might rail against that, but the great majority of people in the country would see it as fair and reasonable.
Mr. Raynsford: I shall come in a moment to the procedures that we will adopt. They will ensure that the Secretary of State seeks evidence of opinion before imposing a solution. There will be no question of a "leaden-booted" solution without consultation and an attempt to gain a full understanding of the views of those involved in the fire service.
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