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'( ) No order shall be made under this section more than two years after the commencement of this Act, except for the purpose of revoking provision contained in a previous order.'.—[Mr. Raynsford.]
Clause 1, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Amendments made: No. 18, in page 2, line 32, leave out from "(c.51))" to end of line 33.
No. 19, in page 2, line 35, leave out from "1947" to end of line 37.
No. 20, in page 3, line 5, at end insert—
'( ) In its application to Northern Ireland, this Act has effect as if—
(a) for references to the Secretary of State there were substituted references to the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety;
(b) for references to a fire authority or fire authorities there were substituted references to the Fire Authority for Northern Ireland;
(c) for references to a fire brigade there were substituted references to the fire brigade within the meaning of the Fire Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1984 (S.I.1984/1821 (N.I.11));
(d) in section 1(1), "made by statutory instrument" were omitted;
(e) in section 1(2)(b) and (c), "another fire authority or to" were omitted;
(f) for section 1(7) there were substituted—
"(7) The power to make an order under this section shall be exercisable by statutory rule for the purposes of the Statutory Rules (Northern Ireland) Order 1979 (S.I. 1979/1573 (N.I. 12)).
(7A) An order under this section that makes provision authorised by subsection (1)(a) shall be subject to negative resolution within the meaning of section 41(6) of the Interpretation Act (Northern Ireland) 1954 (c.33(N.I.))."'
—[Mr. Raynsford.]
Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Amendment made: No. 21, in line 1, leave out
'on the Secretary of State'.
—[Mr. Raynsford.]
Bill reported, with amendment.
9.22 pm
Mr. Raynsford: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
Today, we have had the opportunity to debate in detail the issues arising from the powers that we are seeking in the Bill. Like the events of the past year, these debates have illustrated how difficult it is to strike the right balance between the competing interests and points of view of the staff of fire brigades who want a fair level of pay for the difficult and dangerous job they do; the employers who have to manage fire brigades so they provide a good service to the public within budget; the public, who are entitled to expect protection from fires and other accidents; and the armed forces and the police, who have been diverted from their usual duties during the current dispute, often at significant personal and professional cost. But in the end, that balance must be struck. In the public interest, we cannot allow the dispute about pay in the fire service to continue indefinitely. A resolution must be found one way or another, and that is a responsibility that we as a Government must accept.
The Bill will provide us with the powers to draw a line under the current pay dispute and begin to set a new direction for the fire service. If the House agrees, it will enable the Secretary of State, in England and Wales only, to make orders to do two things. Under clause 1(1)(a), he will be able to set or modify the pay and conditions of fire brigade members. Under clause 1(1)(b), he will be able to give specific or general directions to fire authorities about the use or disposal of property or facilities.
The powers in the Bill extend to Northern Ireland, where they will be exercised by the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety. For the time being, that means that they will be exercised under the direction of the Secretary of State, but as and when devolution is restored they will revert to Executive Ministers.
As a result of amendments made today, the powers in the Bill will have a limited life and will lapse two years after Royal Assent. Any orders already made will remain in force unless specifically revoked.
My right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister said on Second Reading that he hoped he would not need to use the Bill. He believed that it was still possible to reach a negotiated settlement and that the time required for the Bill to become law would provide a further opportunity for that settlement to be reached. Hon. Members will be aware that, not long after he made that speech, the employers made a further offer to the FBU. So far as pay is concerned, the offer remains as before: 16 per cent. over two and a half years. The employers said that they could not increase that amount, which is generous in any case, but they have been able to take another look at the modernisation elements of the offer. Modernisation is still the bedrock of the deal, but the employers have clarified what they propose. That gives firefighters more assurances about some of the matters that concern them, especially changes to their duty systems and shift patterns. I believe that the employers have responded to much of the misunderstanding and misinformation that has surrounded the dispute. Firefighters can see that what is on offer is fair. It does mean change, but it does not mean reductions in safety or arbitrary changes to shifts for the sake of it. The FBU is taking soundings about the offer and will decide whether to accept it at a further recall conference on 12 June.
There are therefore grounds for hope that a negotiated deal is within reach, but our optimism about that prospect should be tempered by prudence. We have thought that agreement was near on previous occasions. I cannot help wondering what role the introduction of the Bill may have played in persuading the two parties to try once again to reach agreement. I am sorry to say, however, that even if the two sides are able to reach broad agreement we cannot be certain that that will be an end to it. The terms of the employers' offer mean that there would still have to be detailed negotiations over the next few months. It is therefore important that we enact the powers in the Bill so that we can intervene if any such negotiations break down. We therefore intend, with the agreement of the House, to press ahead with further consideration of the Bill in another place.
Today, we have considered a wide range of issues, from the right to strike, to rationalising fire stations, to the role of secret ballots. Those are all issues that it is right for us to debate. I urge hon. Members, however, to bear in mind that the Bill is only a temporary measure. Although we should still get it right, what may be right, reasonable and feasible as a short-term, stop-gap measure may not be what we would want for the longer term.
Mr. Davidson: The Minister says that it is a temporary measure. Does he recall that income tax was introduced on the same basis?
Mr. Raynsford: I am happy to say that I was not alive when income tax was introduced, but in my recollection William Pitt did not introduce a sunset clause. We have accepted a sunset clause, so my hon. Friend's concerns should not prove too serious.
Mr. Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight): Does the Minister accept that it would be wrong to use a temporary Bill of
this nature to regionalise fire services and to take control away from local authorities or, indeed, to take control rooms away from local authorities such as my own?
Mr. Raynsford: We make no such proposal in the Bill. It is a temporary measure that is focused on two issues. First, it gives the Secretary of State the power, if necessary, in the absence of an agreed negotiated settlement to the dispute, to impose a settlement in those circumstances. As we have said, we do not want to do that. We hope that there will be a negotiated settlement, and there are good grounds for believing that there may be, but the Bill acts as a stop-gap in case that is not possible. Secondly, the Bill gives the Secretary of State the power to direct fire authorities on the use and disposal of assets and facilities, for the obvious reason that that enables us to protect the public interest in the event of further strike action where it is necessary to ensure that appropriate appliances are available. Those are the purposes of the Bill and it does not have the wider effects that the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Turner) suggests.
What might be right in the short term might not be what we would want for the longer term. We have to deal now with the very serious situation provoked by the failure to reach a settlement for more than a year. The Bill is directed at that; it does not attempt to deal with the need for a new long-term framework for the fire service. That means that we have to work within the current structure, accepting that it is flawed. For the future, however, we have the chance to set a new direction for the fire service through the forthcoming White Paper. That is where we will set out our thinking on the role of the service, on how it should be organised, and on getting the right relationship between central Government, the fire authorities and the fire service. We need to provide clearer leadership, and we will start with the publication of the White Paper.
Implementing our policies will require legislation, which we will seek at the earliest opportunity, so that we can put the fire service on a new footing that recognises properly the wide range of activities that it is already carrying out—a far wider range of services than those defined in the Fire Services Act 1947, which still provides the statutory basis for the service. Over the next few months, therefore, we expect to have a debate about what we say in the White Paper. After that, the House will have a full opportunity to consider in detail the necessary legislation.
That legislation will be the right vehicle for finding longer-term solutions to the problems that the service faces: solutions that are not overshadowed by a long drawn out industrial dispute, but that focus instead on the needs of our society in the early 21st century and on the challenges that we face in responding to those needs. Those challenges will require measures to reduce the number of fires and the number of deaths and injuries caused by fire, to improve community safety and the effectiveness of the fire service in preventing as well as responding to fires and other emergencies, and—last, but by no means least—to provide a rewarding and properly rewarded career for the men and women in our fire service who undertake the difficult and dangerous tasks on which we all depend. I commend the Bill to the House.
9.31 pm
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