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Ann Winterton: In rubbishing the excellent speech of my hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Mr. Spring), the hon. Gentleman might reflect on what has happened so far. Why are so many economic migrants coming to the UK? They come for various reasons.
Mr. Michael Ancram (Devizes): The climate?
Ann Winterton: No, not the climate.
These people are coming because we have a high-wage economy. We have a national health service and a social security system that are second to none in the entire EU. There are other reasons why they are coming, too. Let us throw away all those polls, as I agree with the hon. Gentleman that they are not worth the paper that they are written on. None the less, from experience, does he not accept that there is a case for suggesting that people may come to the west from the applicant nations for the reasons that I have given? That is a real issue, and the people of this country are concerned about it.
Dr. Whitehead: The hon. Lady has now shifted the ground on which she is speaking. I am delighted that she has agreed that the case made about polls by her hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk appears to have little substance. I agree that some economic migrants are coming to this country, and that some are doing so illegally. That is the other important point that we should think about in relation to the Bill. As the hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Mr. Moore) said, the accession treaty allows free movement of people in the EU, but if the provisions were not agreed to, it would not allow movement to work. That is what we are talking about—not immigration, but movement to work.
It is true that some people in this country, including some in my city, and in the towns and cities represented by other hon. Members, are working illegally. The point about combining free movement in the EU after accession and the right to work is that circumstances will come together whereby people can work legally and be regulated and checked up on. They can also be covered by the minimum wage, for example, so they will not have any dealings with the white vans that we sometimes see at 5 o'clock in the morning picking up people who are often in very difficult circumstances so that they can work illegally, often for tiny wages.
The practical outcome of the provisions is that a number of those circumstances will be ameliorated. The fact that people will be able to have a national insurance number, and their wages and conditions of employment will be able to be regulated, is good news for all of us in
this country, including the constituents whose views the hon. Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton) brings to the Chamber in raising worries about what is likely to happen after accession.That is good news for all of us, over and above the idea—an idea that I shall simply leave on the table—that we are not in a position to do without anybody else in our labour force in years to come. We should not underestimate the importance of the contribution provided by free movement of labour in the EU to this country's ability to work economically in years to come.
Mr. Wayne David (Caerphilly): I am somewhat disappointed by the amendments. We have to be careful about how we conduct this debate, and extremely careful about the language that we employ.
I am pleased that the Bill includes the clause under discussion and that the Government indicated in December last year that, in respect of the eight applicant states that seek the right of freedom to work in the current European Union, the UK would introduce measures from the date of accession that would make that right available. That is to be welcomed, and it has been extremely well received by the applicant countries.
Opposition Members have expressed concerns about the Bill, but I cast my mind back to just a few years ago, when we discussed the applications of other states to join the European Union. I well remember the debate about Portugal, Greece and Spain, in which many people said, "Oh, this will be terrible; we'll have thousands upon thousands of Portuguese, Greeks and Spaniards flocking to our shores, taking British jobs and making British people unemployed." Has it happened? No. Will it happen in the future? No. In fact, as has been mentioned, the opposite has been the trend and more and more British people have been moving to work and retire in countries such as Portugal, Greece and Spain.
Particular reference has been made to one central European country—Poland, where the current unemployment rate is 18.5 per cent. However, it would be profoundly wrong for us to imagine for one moment that because the clause will apply to Poland, just as to the other seven countries, millions of unemployed Polish workers will come to this country trying to find work.
The reason why that will not happen is that family, cultural and distance restraints will inevitably apply. People will want to have the opportunity to leave, but the practical impediments are such that we will not experience a mass migration of labour. History, and all the economic and social analyses, tell us that.
3.45 pm
The scaremongering that we hear from some quarters will inevitably be short-lived. That is because although unemployment is high in parts of Poland, for example, the economies of the countries of central Europe will strengthen remarkably in a relatively short space of time. The accession process involves the employment of structural funds and the liberalisation of markets, so those countries will have an opportunity that they have not had in a generation, which will be a tremendous boost leading to higher levels of indigenous employment. If what I am saying is wrong, safeguards are in place, and there is nothing to prevent the
Government from reintroducing regulations if they so wish, but nobody who has considered the matter in any great detail and depth can believe that such a scenario is likely.My next remarks may not be at all popular with Conservative Members. This country, particularly south-east England, needs more workers coming in who have the skills to help us to build our economy and create a strong, productive economic base. We have a strong economy, which I hope will get stronger, and we need people from outside to work with us to create the economic prosperity that we all seek. That is not a common perception—I appreciate that—and many Conservative Members will be almost pathologically opposed to such a concept, but it is the truth. In my area of south Wales, the whole industrial experience is about workers from different parts of Europe coming in and helping to create the prosperity that our region once enjoyed and, I hope, will enjoy again.
In approaching this issue we must be honest, but broad-minded as well. If we are immediately to create the right kind of atmosphere in this new enlarged Europe, we must have a proper and enlightened attitude to such matters. I therefore sincerely hope that Conservative Members will have second thoughts about the amendments, so that we do not send out a negative and unintended message to the countries who wish to join, and, what is more, that they will not try to pursue an agenda that is against our economic best interests.
Beverley Hughes: Let me say at the outset that I hope that in addressing the points raised by the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Mr. Spring), as well as other Members who contributed constructively to the debate, I can convince him to withdraw the amendment. I shall deal later with his criticisms about the time at which the report has been produced.
I hope that Conservative Members can join us in supporting the whole Bill, not only because the Government included clause 2 for sound reasons, but because it is important that we send as positive a signal as possible—not just as a Government, but as a whole Parliament—to all the acceding countries. There is a danger that somebody reflecting on today's proceedings could be concerned about what the amendments imply about Conservative Members' attitude towards some of the new member states. They say that they support enlargement, but their amendments suggest that, although there is no need for it from a UK point of view, they want nationals from new member states to be treated, at least in the first phase, as second-class citizens.
Mr. Spring: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Beverley Hughes: I will just finish this point, then I will be happy to give way.
It is our position that the Government should extend to these countries the hand of friendship, offer them full acceptance at the earliest opportunity—provided that there is no economic or other reason relating to UK interests not to do so—and not close the door in the first few years.
Mr. Spring: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Of course we shall listen very carefully to what she
has to say and to the explanations that she gives. We shall obviously consider our amendments in that light. Let me make it absolutely plain, however, that I will not accept for a moment any inference on her part that our seeking this derogation through the amendments somehow implies something negative towards the accession countries. I will simply say that Finland, France, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg, Belgium and Austria have all sought such derogations. I hope that the hon. Lady is not casting aspersions on those countries.
Beverley Hughes: The hon. Gentleman has made that point before. From my information, he is quite incorrect about the position of other countries on this matter so far. According to my information, at least six, and possibly seven, countries—including the UK—have already decided not to seek the derogation.
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