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David Taylor: Does the hon. Gentleman hope that the Government will learn from the private finance initiative disaster of the Libra computer system? That showed the awful consequences of allowing the private sector to be uncontrolled, and to deliver software in a loose framework.
Mr. Hawkins: I hope that lessons will be learned from a history of problems that have arisen when contracts are not sufficiently tightly specified. That applies not only to the justice system but across government. Often, specifications are not drawn tightly enough and the result is a shambles. The hon. Gentleman, from his distinguished experience as a magistrate, has contributed sensibly to many of our debates. I look forward to his comments in the Standing Committee, if he serves on it.
The Parliamentary Secretary who opened the debate rightly commented on part 4, which relates to court security. Again, Conservative Members accept that it includes some sensible provisions. I agree with the remarks of the hon. Member for Braintree about the police. I too remember when police sergeants sat in court next to the prosecutors and defenders. Perhaps more of a police presence would mean that we did not need some of these provisions.
The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, who chairs the Select Committee, made a point, which many Labour Members also picked up, about newspapers wasting a huge amount of taxpayers' money by causing trials to be aborted. The hon. Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd's Bush (Mr. Soley) knows that throughout my time in Parliament, I have supported his efforts to bring newspapers to account. He pressed the Parliamentary Secretary on the need for the draft regulations to be seen before the Committee stage, and I agree with that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Stone, leading for the Opposition, rightly praised the work that has been done on the Bill in the other place, particularly by our noble Friend, Baroness Anelay of St. Johns and her colleagues. He said that we hoped that the Government would continue to accept the amendments that were
passed in another place, and I hope to hear a clear reassurance from the Minister that the Government will not seek to unwind the very sensible improvements that were made to the Bill there.My hon. Friend also praised the new Select Committee on the Lord Chancellor's Department and its report. He pointed out that the Committee had concerns about the accessibility of the courts, about justices' clerks becoming civil servants, about fine enforcement and about the problem in the London area—referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Woking—of £92 million worth of fines having been imposed, but only £41 million having been collected. Those are matters to which we shall undoubtedly return in Committee.
The hon. Member for Clwyd, West (Gareth Thomas) intervened on my hon. Friend the Member for Stone about the full recovery of costs as a basis for the whole system. My hon. Friend rightly pointed out that we hope that judicial salaries will continue to be kept out of the costs recovery system. A valuable amendment on that matter was passed in another place. My hon. Friend also raised the issue of fine enforcement and the ability to pay, pointing out that access to the courts is a constitutional right that should not be barred by excessive zeal in trying to recover the whole cost of the civil justice system.
My hon. Friend also referred to the amendments proposed by the Magistrates Association, which were discussed in another place, and the issue of coterminosity between police areas and the 42 new court board areas. I was reminded that 42 was supposed to be the answer to the question of life, the universe and everything. It might not be that, but it is certainly useful to have had those amendments passed in another place.
The undermining of local justice and the concerns about court closures, to which I have already referred, were also dealt with by my hon. Friend. We certainly need to keep the amendments to clause 30 that were passed in the other place. My hon. Friend also referred to the issue of high sheriffs and under-sheriffs, and the problem of the loss of emoluments for under-sheriffs and the indemnity of under-sheriffs between Royal Assent and the time when the new arrangements come into force. We shall return to that matter in Committee.
The hon. Member for Wirral, West (Stephen Hesford) made a speech that, rather uncharacteristically, tended to undermine the spirit of co-operation that existed between the parties in another place. He rather comprehensively misunderstood and misrepresented the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone. He also misrepresented the Conservatives' position on the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002. I know a little bit about that, because I was one of the shadow Ministers who took that Bill through Committee. The hon. Gentleman said that the Conservatives had opposed the Bill. That was not the case; we supported large parts of it, and improved it by raising some points of detail. The Government's own Minister accepted the spirit of some of the things that we were trying to do to improve that legislation, as I hope the Government will do with this Bill.
The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) referred to the rumours—which we have all heard—that a Ministry of Justice might be created within a week or so, and agreed with the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed about the need for consultation before major changes in the constitutional arrangements relating to the role of the Lord Chancellor came into force. The hon. Gentleman pointed out that there had been great cause for concern when the Bill was first published, but that it had been much improved in another place. He was quite right, however, to say that we did not want any backsliding on the improvements that had been made.
The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome also referred to the fact that the process of justice is becoming more and more remote in this country. He took an intervention from the hon. Member for Clwyd, West, who offered a counsel of despair by saying that we could not have a court in every market town in every part of the country. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome—and the Conservatives—pointed out that that is exactly what we used to have, and, indeed, had successfully for hundreds of years. We hope that one day, we might reverse some of the court closures and get back to a system that provides local justice.
The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome agreed with an intervention from the hon. Member for North-West Leicestershire (David Taylor), who rightly pointed out the lack of deterrence involved when local newspapers decline to travel to faraway courts—a problem arising from the local court closures. I agree with the hon. Gentleman on that point. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome queried what local courts boards would actually do, and raised the important issue of the different sizes of police areas.
He mentioned third-party costs, the huge disquiet about police officers being paid by newspapers, and the bland assurances by the Press Complaints Commission, which he said—and I agree with him—were not acceptable. As he observed, a robust line will be needed in Committee.
The hon. and learned Member for Dudley, North (Ross Cranston), the former Solicitor-General, rightly praised the work of Sir Robin Auld. He referred to the work of the new Lord Chancellor's Department Select Committee, on which he sits, and the conflicting evidence given to the Committee about the new courts boards. He also spoke of improvements in the enforcement of fines.
In a powerful speech, my hon. Friend the Member for Woking described his experience of the fines issue. I hope that Ministers will think carefully about his important description of the situation at the sharp end. The hon. Member for Clwyd, West praised my hon. Friend's speech, and described the fines system as a travesty and a scandal. The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed made another powerful speech about what has happened in the Lord Chancellor's Department Select Committee, and further powerful speeches were made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) and the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Kidney).
The Bill has already been massively improved in another place. We hope that the Government will accept the improvements that have been made, and we look forward to dealing during the Committee stage with the ways in which it is still defective.
9.51 pm
The Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department (Ms Rosie Winterton): This has been an interesting and wide-ranging debate reflecting an almost dangerous amount of expertise, represented not just by members of the legal profession but by members of the Select Committee. A number of points were made and I shall deal with as many as possible, but I think most Members agree that much of what has been raised will be dealt with in Committee.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral, West (Stephen Hesford), my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dudley, North (Ross Cranston), and my hon. Friends the Members for Clwyd, West (Gareth Thomas), for Stafford (Mr. Kidney) and for Braintree (Mr. Hurst) acknowledged that the Bill would ensure the existence of a modern and efficient court system, free from unnecessary and avoidable delay and in touch with the communities that courts serve. I was pleased that the hon. Members for Stone (Mr. Cash) and for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) recognised that this was an important Bill that had been subject to many improvements in the other place.
I was somewhat disappointed that the hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Mr. Hawkins) rather departed from that consensus. When it comes to court closures, he cannot have it both ways. He complains that the current system is leading to many closures, and then he suddenly wants to keep the current system. I should point out that there were seven court closures last year and 21 in 1996, under the last Administration. This year there have been eight appeals, four of which were accepted and four rejected. Between 1993 and 1996 there were 34, all of which were rejected.
Many Members mentioned accessibility. The Government recognise that decisions on the location of courthouses are very important to local communities, and court boards will not simply be consulted about proposed closures. The issue has been raised by the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) and by the Select Committee. I can assure them that the boards will be involved in the development of the estate strategy.
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