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Mr. Straw: We shall come forward with detailed proposals about examination upstairs. As far as debates on the Floor of the House before we rise for the summer recess are concerned, there will be a full day's debate next Wednesday on the business for the Council at Thessaloniki the next day, on a Government motion for the Adjournment. There will then be the usual statement in response to that Council. We have also already agreed internally—I do not think I am giving anything away; it is too bad if I am—that there should be a full day's debate on the Convention thereafter, before we rise for the summer recess.
On the other matter about whether we have a free vote, I am afraid that I cannot accommodate my hon. Friend, for reasons of which he was well aware when he was a Whip.
Mr. McLoughlin: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Straw: I will, but then I must make progress.
Mr. McLoughlin: The Foreign Secretary says that we want a referendum simply because we want to withdraw from Europe. I do not believe that; that is not our position. But if that is the case, why is the Foreign Secretary so afraid of holding a referendum? I do not believe for a moment that the British people would want to pull out of Europe, but I do think that they might have serious concerns about this constitution. Is the
right hon. Gentleman just too afraid of losing the referendum and being in the same position as the Irish Government and the Danish Government were in when they asked the people what they thought?
Mr. Straw: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will give me credit for this. I am not afraid of having an argument with anyone. That is not the issue. There is a serious issue here, and the hon. Gentleman knows very well that there is. It is that the default setting for determining issues, including whether we sign treaties, must be this Parliament. I believe that Parliament should be sovereign. I have spent 25 years in this place arguing for that. I accept that there are sometimes occasions when referendums are appropriate. I have set out the basic rule that Governments of successive parties have tended to follow. As I have said, I do not believe, on any analysis, that this set of proposals involves a fundamental change in the nature of the relationship between the European Union and its member sovereign states and therefore I believe that a referendum is not appropriate.
Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) rose—
Mr. Straw: I want to make progress. I am very sorry.
We must draw on our previous experience. Given the contents of the Single European Act in 1986, or of the Maastricht treaty, each of those changed the nature of the relationship between us and the European Union far more fundamentally than the current proposals would. The Single European Act in 1986 introduced qualified majority voting on all internal market measures, from free movement of workers through transport policy to health and safety of workers. Thousands of directives and regulations have been passed using articles extended to QMV in the 1986 Act.
Maastricht extended the scope of the Union's activities over a much wider area. It produced the pillar structure, with chapters on justice and home affairs. European political co-operation became a common foreign and security policy and we agreed on a possible future common defence policy. There were new chapters on economic and monetary union, social policy, culture, public health and consumer protection. There were further extensions of QMV, including on visas, public health, education, and mutual assistance in the event of balance of payments difficulties. Maastricht also introduced the concept of citizenship of the Union and it boosted the role of the European Parliament by introducing the co-decision procedure.
Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: Is the Foreign Secretary saying that whatever the outcome of the Convention, he will deny us a referendum? Let us suppose that he is wrong. Supposing there are very big changes in our relationship with the new Union, supposing all these new constitutional changes come to pass, is he saying that in all eventualities, whatever the outcome, he will deny us a referendum? Is that his clear and settled position?
Mr. Straw: First, the Convention is deciding nothing, as the right hon. Gentleman knows. The crucial issue is
what is decided at the intergovernmental conference. Whatever the Convention decides is a matter for the IGC. The best judgment that we can make is that the outcome of the IGC will not fundamentally alter the nature of the relationship. We shall be one of the countries at the IGC with a veto on what goes in the treaty—there is a completely different operation to that of the Convention—and we shall be able to ensure that safeguards exist. I understand why the right hon. Gentleman asked his question but the situation would not arise.
Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) rose—
Mr. Straw: Let me go on and deal with the constitution, because this is the Conservatives' time.
Let us be clear that the EU already has a constitution. It already has the authority for its laws to override those of member states for matters on which we have agreed that it should be able to do so. The problem is not whether the EU has a constitution but the fact that its constitution is to be found in several lengthy treaties, each of which grants it different powers. The EU already has a legal personality with respect to European Community treaties but the right hon. Member for Devizes maundered on about that as if it were a new idea. It is not a new idea because otherwise it could have not signed up to other treaties at a EU level. However, that situation means that our citizens' ability to access information about the EU is undermined.
I have consistently supported a single coherent text. The crucial thing is not the text's label but what it contains. We need a document to set out what the EU is, what it does and how it does it. The document should define the role and powers of the Union's institutions and its relationship with member states, and it should improve the Union's ability to deliver practical benefits to Europe's citizens.
Mr. Straw: I shall not give way because I want to make progress.
Contrary to the assertions made by the right hon. Member for Devizes, we have not sacrificed vast swathes of national sovereignty through the Convention and nor shall we do so at the IGC. The Convention's president has declared that the outcome will be a union of states. There are no references to a federal union in the current text, for one good reason: it will not establish a federal union—I would not be part of the process if it did. There will be no such reference in the final draft.
The right hon. Gentleman failed to mention why it was decided at Laeken two years ago that we needed the Convention on the Future of Europe. The reason was not because there were barking-mad zealots on the other side who were trying to wreck the sense of national identity of the French, the Germans, the Italians, the Estonians and the British and to turn us all into clones of Brussels. The proposals were made at Laeken because the way in which the Union was established in the 1950s was appropriate for a Union of six nations, but not for a Union of 15 nations. The Union can still less operate efficiently or effectively with 25 nations.
We are sensibly accepting the case for extending qualified majority voting on several matters. The right hon. Gentleman's arguments implied that several smaller European countries, three of which contain a population of fewer than 1 million people, should have the right of veto over key changes that we believe should be made. We also want the Council of Minister—the council of nation—to operate more strongly and effectively against the Commission, which he completely failed to mention. At the moment, power has shifted from the Council of Minister—the council of nation—to the Commission because the Commission is permanent while the other institutions have a rotating presidency. That is okay with six members and is just about okay with nine members, but the system does not work with 15 members and it would be impossible to make it efficient with 25 members. A permanent chair of the European Council would be directly accountable to member Governments and member states and would create greater efficiency and effectiveness on our behalf.
I turn to the constitution proposed by the Tory party. I am an assiduous reader of Conservatives.com. [Interruption.] The Tories are not. When I read it, I found that Timothy Kirkhope, the Conservative party's official representative on the European Convention, has unveiled his alternative to the European constitution. He says that he has consulted widely with European colleagues and other Conservatives.
Timothy Kirkhope proposes an amendment to the Praesidium's draft that would provide that the European Parliament should have the right to initiate legislation. Does the right hon. Member for Devizes understand what the Conservative party is proposing? We have heard about European superstates but we would end up with a European federal superstate if the European Parliament had the right to initiate legislation.
The Conservative party's official representative on the Convention goes a bit further. He says on Conservatives.com that the Commission should cease to operate between the European Parliament and the Council and should become the civil service of the Parliament. If the Parliament initiated legislation, it would have to do that through representatives. I rather fancy that they would be called Ministers, such as the Minister for social security and the Minister for the economy, and they would have a civil service. Does what the Conservative party's official representative on the Convention has described on Conservatives.com represent official Conservative party policy?
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