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Ann Winterton (Congleton): The hon. Gentleman is doing something which is often done in the House. He is giving a wish list, and is describing the way in which he would like the European Union to develop. That is not on offer. When the treaty is made, it will deepen the role of institutions in the European Union, and will not achieve what the hon. Gentleman wants.
Mr. Moore: The hon. Lady will have an opportunity to set out her case if she catches your eye, Mr. Deputy
Speaker. Surely, however, we are having this debate because at this stage we do not know what the Convention's final solutions or suggestions will be.
Mr. Allen: Are not the people who want to move fastest on the European project its greatest enemies? Without taking others with them, they will produce a wider distance between the project and the people who are meant to be supporting Europe. People fall into that trap by not, for example, going out and campaigning now for a referendum on the euro, or by not campaigning for one, two, or perhaps even three years on a European constitution. That helps to confirm the Opposition in their view of the content of that constitution, so we are in danger yet again of distancing the people from the European project.
Mr. Moore: I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman. On the euro, for example, we have long argued that a case needed to be made for it, and we should get on and make it. As for what is on offer as the Convention and the IGC proceed, I ask the hon. Gentleman to bear with me for a few minutes, as I am about to set out our position.
I was saying that we need clarification and rationalisation of the EU. It is right that there should be a statement of rights for individuals, which is the key to citizens understanding their direct link to the EU and what it means for them. It is also right that there should be an explicit statement of the respective roles of national Parliaments, Governments and the EU institutions. Beyond those important principles, it is right that new structures should be developed to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the European institutions.
Mr. Paul Tyler (North Cornwall): I am listening with great interest to my hon. Friend. Is it not a simple fact that if John Major had pursued his policy of subsidiarity, which many of us feel is an integral part of this exercise, there would have had to be a constitutional settlement in Europe? I do not understand why some Conservatives oppose any constitution for Europe.
Mr. Moore: My hon. Friend makes a good point.
We do not yet know how far the Convention's final draft treaty will go, but clear statements of principle, simplifying the complex mess of existing treaties and embracing reform, should scare nobody. If that type of reform were packaged and described as a constitution, that would not be particularly dramatic. If, however, there were major shifts of control, such as transferring significant new powers from member states to the European institutions or altering the existing balance between the states and those institutions, we would have to assess the constitutional implications for this country. Those are the tests against which any call for a referendum should be measured. However, we do not know the outcome of the Convention's deliberations and it would be foolish to prejudge them.
We must hope that when the Convention's deliberations are completed the Government and parliamentary representatives, as the Foreign Secretary suggested, will report back to the House and we will have the chance for a full and proper debate on its
conclusions. That would also provide an opportunity for the Government finally to publish a White Paper on their policy for the intergovernmental conference which will follow.
Mr. Allen: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Moore: If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, I will not, as I have given way a number of times.
Ministers have resisted calls for a policy paper, but surely once the draft treaty has been published they cannot resist any longer. As we are talking about increasing openness and accountability in the European Union, why should the Government not lead by example and set out their proposals clearly and concisely? We hear much about the diplomatic red lines around issues that they will not concede, but what about the vision? Where is the grand plan? The IGC will no doubt be long and arduous, but it may surprise us and surpass historically low expectations, delivering more the proposals with which it began. We will not hold our breath but, whatever our expectations, only when a final treaty is available will we be able to assess the constitutional impact for this country and for Europe. Only then should we decide whether or not a referendum is needed.
Mr. Ancram: Does the hon. Gentleman agree with Lord Ashdown, who said some time ago:
- "The only way to debate these issues and to arrive at a popular conclusion that will stick is through a referendum in which voters are, at last, welcomed in the secret garden of European policy"?
Mr. Moore: My noble Friend has made a number of very sensible speeches over the years, and that is one of them. If the right hon. Gentleman had been listening to me, he would have learned which tests we think are necessary to establish whether or not there should be a referendum.
Already the Government and Opposition spokesmen have run for cover, digging themselves into their bunkers and making decisions before common sense suggests that it is wise to do so. Having set out a perfectly sensible case for determining the need for a referendum, the Government have now prejudged everything. Without even a final draft from the Convention, never mind the IGC, their amendment states boldly:
- "there is no case for a referendum".
As for the Conservative spokesmen, let me try to be charitable. Perhaps their efforts today are not simply a response to the cries from certain hysterical sections of the press. Perhaps their motion is not simply a device to allow them under the cover of a referendum to question the UK's continued membership of the European Union. But it seems strange that they, too, have prejudged matters. If what emerges from this process is long-needed reform of the EU, a clear statement of the
citizen's place in Europe, and a better codification of the relationship between member states and European institutions, that will be very welcome. But the changes will not necessarily have constitutional implications for this country, whether the word "constitution" is slapped across the front of the treaty or not. We should not prejudge that process, and for that reason we cannot support the Conservative motion.As the Convention concludes its work and the Government prepare their position for the IGC, we should turn our attention to the specific proposals that have been made. It is crazy to rule a referendum out, but it is equally daft to demand one now. Let us see the treaty, judge its character and then make the decision.
3.8 pm
Keith Vaz (Leicester, East): I shall be brief because I know that time is short. It is right that the hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Mr. Moore) should remind the House of why the Convention was set up. What depresses me about the Conservatives' policy on this issue, and, indeed, more generally on Europe, is the fact that they keep trying to tell the House and the country that they are in favour of enlargement but, at the same time, they want to use every opportunity to send a message to this country and the countries that will be part of the European Union that they are against enlargement. The Convention's purpose is to modernise the way in which the European Union operates and prepare it for enlargement. What was good enough for six countries was just about good enough for 15, but it will not be good enough when the 25 are formed on 1 May. The right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) will join me and others, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, East and Washington, West (Joyce Quin) and the shadow Minister for Europe, at a reception that is being held today in the Members Dining Room, where representatives of the applicant countries and the descendants of people from the enlargement countries will participate in the first enlargement celebration here in the House of Commons.
What a sad message the right hon. Gentleman is sending out. The Conservatives' policy was opposed to the Nice treaty. They wanted a referendum on the Nice treaty. In other words, they wanted to block enlargement. That would have been the effect of their campaign. [Interruption.] Exactly. The referendum would have been lost and enlargement would have been blocked—exactly what the Conservatives wanted. The purpose of Nice, of the decisions taken at Laeken and of the Convention is to prepare us, as the hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale has just said, for the enlargement process.
Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: None of the applicant state members on the Convention, of which I am a member, has ever made the point that the constitution is necessary for enlargement. They are joining on the basis of the Nice treaty, and they will probably join on 1 May next year, before the constitution is even ratified, so the hon. Gentleman's comments are very wide of the mark.
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