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Mr. Stephen O'Brien (Eddisbury): During the Deputy Prime Minister's statement, he used the following sentence to justify a referendum in the north-west: in the north-east and north-west, more than half of all respondents wanted a referendum. Will he confirm that he aggregated the figures for the two regions to produce that result, and that he missed out the word "each" in front of the north-east and the north-west? Will he give, from his file, the breakdown of figures for those who support and those who are against referendums for Cumbria, Lancashire, Greater Manchester, Merseyside and Cheshire? Will he confirm that the majority in Cheshire are absolutely against a referendum, and against regional government in the north-west?
The Deputy Prime Minister: I think that the document is available, and the hon. Gentleman can check the validity of my answers. Of course there was a majority in the north-west. The figure was not aggregated in that sense. I have the figures before me at the moment, and they show that more than 50 per cent. of those in the north-west agreed that they should have a referendum. [Interruption.] No, the figures are right. They are aggregated for the region itself. It is true that a vigorous campaign was conducted in Cheshire, but, as I see from the county council network that I referred to, even the
people in those areas wanted to have a referendum. We have conducted this on a regional basis, and I have given the judgment to the House. How different groups in a region voted can be seen in the report, and overall it justifies my decision to hold a referendum.
Dr. Ashok Kumar (Middlesbrough, South and Cleveland, East): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his statement. He has had a lifelong commitment to regional government, and this is a great day for all of us, certainly for Labour Members. However, may I tell him that if regional government is to succeed, the two tiers of local authority have to work and campaign together for a speedy resolution? I have bitter memories of what happened in the 1990s, when county and district councils clashed with one another and there was fighting left, right and centre. Will he instruct local authorities to work together and co-operate for the greater good?
The Deputy Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and the Regions advises me that he has written today to urge councils to do that—and I say, "Good luck," because we all know the difficulties of telling individuals with strongly held views about these matters what they should do. I hope that they will have respect for one another's arguments. The yes campaigns and the no campaigns will cut across political parties—I am sure that they have done so already—and moneys can be available through political funding, although limitations are placed on that. We will now start consulting on that, and I will keep the House informed about how such things can be achieved. I hope that the issues will be debated with good humour, because the decisions are worth taking.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York): The Deputy Prime Minister will be aware that the population of North Yorkshire accounts for 11 per cent. of the total region of Yorkshire and the Humber. In the event that the people of North Yorkshire vote to keep the county council and the district, and against a regional Parliament, will their views as expressed in the referendum be respected?
The Deputy Prime Minister: The results will be determined in the regions, but, as I have already said, North Yorkshire council has asked for the referendum.
Mr. Colin Challen (Morley and Rothwell): From the perspective of a Member representing Leeds, which is the economic and enterprise capital of Yorkshire and the Humber—if not of the north—I welcome my right hon. Friend's statement. What hangs the three areas together is that they have the highest levels of deprivation in England, which, I suspect, is why there is such a high demand for more powers for the regions. I will argue the case in the campaign for a yes vote, on the grounds that if we have regional assemblies we will have a greater say in getting resources from Government. Does my right hon. Friend approve of that line?
The Deputy Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for his kind remarks. As for his last comment, I have always believed strongly that the Government of this country is too centralised, and that the regions have not had sufficient powers in such matters. If regions can get
together, they form a tremendous countervailing power to decisions made by central Government. Why should that not happen? All too often, regions have no influence in some of those decisions, and I believe that elected authorities of this kind will have that effect. I note what my hon. Friend says about his approach during the campaign, and I note further his bid, which is the first that I have heard since my announcement, for Leeds—a powerful and prosperous city in my area of Yorkshire—to be the centre not only of Yorkshire but of the north. I leave him to argue that out with his colleagues.
Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (West Derbyshire): I have had more in common with Derbyshire county council since this Government were elected than I ever did when I sat on the Government Benches. Will the Deputy Prime Minister tell me what will be the impact of his announcement on the Peak District national park, which has parts of four regions within its borders: the east midlands, the west midlands, the north-west and Yorkshire? Today he has announced referendums in some parts of it but not in other parts. What impact will that have on the national park?
The Deputy Prime Minister: To be honest, I do not fully know what will be the effect of that. Clearly, some of the regional areas cross boundaries—in the Thames gateway area, three or four regional development agencies are actively involved, and they come together, co-operate and make decisions. The referendums will be conducted within the boundaries that exist. If there is to be a vote in one region, that will be the case regardless of whether the dale extends into another region. I am afraid that I cannot offer any further comfort about what will be the consequences. I do not think that the impact will be great, but the main consequence will be that the people of the area make a choice.
Mr. David Borrow (South Ribble): I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement. I am particularly pleased that he has ignored the comments of the county councils in the north-west, which, to a certain extent, speak with a vested interest because of the element of conservatism in local government that is always resistant to change. On my real question, much discussion took place during the passage of the Regional Assemblies (Preparations) Bill about the White Paper and the terms of it that did not form part of the legislation. That White Paper will inform part of the Act that will set up the regional assemblies. We have not yet had the opportunity to debate the fine detail of the White Paper, and much criticism has been made of many of its provisions. Will my right hon. Friend assure me that once the people of the north-west have voted for a regional assembly, there will be an opportunity for the House to decide exactly what will be the terms and powers of that regional assembly?
The Deputy Prime Minister: The obvious point is that the Bill will come through this House, and the agreement of the House will be necessary before we can proceed with it. I hope, however, that there will be an opportunity to discuss some of the draft Bill before the referendum, for which a number of Members have asked, and which we will do our best to provide.
Ultimately, however, none of the proposals can be effected without the permission of the House and discussion by Members of the House.
Mr. George Osborne (Tatton): This morning on the radio, the Minister for Local Government and the Regions said that if the turnout was derisory in one of the referendums, the plans would not go ahead. Given that in the north-west there was a turnout of 0.0005 per cent. in the soundings exercise, which the Deputy Prime Minister describes as a high level of interest, what is his definition of derisory? [Interruption.]
The Deputy Prime Minister: I think that somebody said that it would be two Tory MPs in the Chamber. Members will recognise that if there is a derisory turnout of the kind that the hon. Gentleman is talking about—zero, zero, zero something—it would be difficult to say that that represented the will of the people. I do not think that that will happen, but we will have to make a judgment on the basis of the propositions that are put to us, and how many participated in the vote. Clearly, putting a figure on that at the moment would be influential, but we do not propose to do so. I believe, however, that many people will take part in the vote. They want the vote, as we found in the consultation exercise, and I have no doubt that an awful lot of people will vote.
Mr. Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow): If regional government becomes a reality in the north, will the Deputy Prime Minister give an assurance that no powers will be transferred to it from existing metropolitan authorities?
The Deputy Prime Minister: My hon. Friend must be aware, if he considers the current housing strategy, that in some cases we are transferring powers—from counties, for example. We have to make a judgment and the Bill will contain exact provisions for what we will do, so I ask him to wait for that.
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