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Mr. Forth: That would be helpful.

At this point, it would be only courteous of me if I welcomed the new Deputy Leader of the House to his place. He is most welcome. I only regret that he did not

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seek to catch Mr. Speaker's eye at the beginning of the debate in order to set out the reasons for the motion. It is, of course, in the name of his right hon. Friend, that bi-cephalous man, the Secretary of State for Wales and Leader of the House, who sadly is not with us. His deputy, I am sure, would have ably moved the motion and, I hope, will equally ably reply to the debate. He might then be able to give my right hon. and learned Friend the assurance that he sought. I hope that he will.

Mr. Bercow: I am grateful, once again, to my right hon. Friend for giving way. I am, as he knows, a person of generous heart and public spirit, but I am highly sceptical whether the case has yet been made for the Speaker to be absent for a day. It could be constitutionally perilous if that were to happen. In trying to assess the pros and cons of the argument, in which respect I know my right hon. Friend would wish to assist me, may I ask him the rather prosaic question whether the university of Glasgow has considered holding the important ceremony on a non-sitting day?

Mr. Forth: That raises an interesting and relevant point, which is typical of my hon. Friend, concerning eminent and ancient institutions such as my alma mater, the university of Glasgow. Happily, it was founded in the 15th century, so one would have thought it had been around long enough to understand the nuances involved in inviting someone as eminent as Mr. Speaker, and I should add, as it is relevant to the answer that I am trying to give, that my degree is indeed in politics and economics.

One would therefore have thought that the department of politics at the university might have advised it of the inadvisability of inviting Mr. Speaker to attend the ceremony while the House was sitting.

Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk): I am extremely grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. He has mentioned a very important point about the university of Glasgow—his alma mater. Does he know whether Wednesday's ceremony will be a special one-off event for Mr. Speaker or part of a wider jamboree to which other people have been invited to receive honorary degrees? If it is the latter, it would be difficult to cancel the event. However, if there is to be a unique, bespoke ceremony for Mr. Speaker, his argument that the university might show some flexibility could be more convincing.

Mr. Forth: It certainly would not be a jamboree. That is certain, as the university of Glasgow does these things properly. However, my hon. Friend makes an important point. While this short debate is going on, one of my hon. Friends might seek further particulars from the university as to the nature of the ceremony itself. That would help to set in context what Mr. Speaker will be expected to do when he is in Glasgow and in whose company he may find himself when he is given the honour.

Mr. George Foulkes (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley): It is, of course, technically possible for the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues to continue debating

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the motion in this so-called hilarious fashion until 10 pm, which would mean that proceedings on the Licensing Bill continued until 4.30 in the morning. While that sounds clever, does it really enhance the reputation and dignity of this House?

Mr. Forth: I hope that idle Labour Members are not already thinking about when they can leave the building, although it sounds as if they might be doing so. This debate will continue for as long as we wish and while we remain in order, or indeed until the Government are unwise enough to seek a closure. That option is always available to them, although I would not advise that they take it on this occasion. If the right hon. Gentleman is suggesting that a matter that features on the Order Paper and is available for debate somehow need not or should not be debated, that would give the lie to the attitude of all too many Labour Members, as these days, on the Government Benches, they do not believe that this House should exercise its proper responsibilities in a proper way.

Mr. Foulkes: Quite the reverse. I agree that we should exercise our responsibilities. We should also exercise our judgment and discretion.

Mr. Forth: That is exactly what I am trying to do.

Mr. John Taylor (Solihull): In view of the fact that my right hon. Friend's alma mater understands the historical proprieties in these matters, and bearing in mind the analogy of the state opening, would he consider it appropriate to ask the university whether we may have a hostage pending Mr. Speaker's safe return?

Mr. Forth: I am very happy to offer myself as that hostage on this occasion, as a graduate and alumnus.

Mr. Soames: My right hon. Friend has been speculating about what may happen during the ceremony, and I hope that one of my hon. Friends will seek to contact the university to find out. However, does he agree that there is a distinct possibility that Mr. Speaker will be invited to make a speech in Latin? That is indeed a task of a high order for anyone. Does he agree that, on this particular occasion, it would be appropriate for the House to be informed about Mr. Speaker's exact duties while he is away from us?

Mr. Forth: I think that I have already conceded that point. In my day—I graduated in 1966—a large part of such ceremonies was conducted in Latin, and my degree certificate is, appropriately, in Latin as well. Sadly, I am not now sufficiently in touch with the university to know whether it has undergone that ghastly modernisation process so beloved of the Government and their supporters and changed the proceedings from Latin to English.

It would be useful to inquire of the university about that before we go much further.

Mr. Hogg: As regards the possibility that the Speaker will have to make a speech in Latin, would my right hon. Friend respectfully request a translation on behalf of the House, so that we know what he says?

Mr. Forth: I am surprised that my right hon. and learned Friend would require a translation—I should

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have thought that he is fluent in most of the classical languages—but that is not an unreasonable request. I hope that it will have been taken into consideration, even at this early stage of the debate.

I want briefly to consider the role of the Speaker to enable us to judge how far it might be compromised by his absence. I turned first to that source to which we always turn—namely, the Library. It has produced an excellent factsheet on Mr. Speaker, which says:

"The direction and guidance the House receives from its . . . (Speaker) is central to the House's whole way of life."

One could not put it better than that. It neatly sums up the centrality of the role of Mr. Speaker as far as the House is concerned, and gives us some cause for concern as to how on earth we will manage if he is to be absent even for the one day that is mentioned in the motion.

"Erskine May", to which we all resort on these occasions, because it is our guide and our bible on such matters, says, on page 188:

"The Speaker's functions fall into two main categories. On the one hand the Speaker is the spokesman or representative of the House in its relations with the Crown, the House of Lords and other authorities and persons outside Parliament."

We should pause there for a moment, because that is a matter that is currently at the forefront of everybody's mind. The mention of

"the Crown, the House of Lords and other authorities and persons outside Parliament"

reminds us of the developments that are rapidly taking place, even as we speak, in another place. Given the rapidity with which events are unfolding, the question arises as to whether Mr. Speaker will be required to be here on the day after tomorrow to carry out the responsibilities adumbrated in "Erskine May". It goes on to say:

"On the other hand the Speaker presides over the debates of the House of Commons and enforces the observance of all rules for preserving order in its proceedings."

What we will have to judge—I shall return to this later—is how far the absence of the Speaker in any way compromises those very important responsibilities that are laid upon him.

Mr. Hogg: One of the Speaker's responsibilities is to safeguard the rights of Back Benchers. I think that my right hon. Friend will be the first to agree that this Government tramples on those rights. Is not that a reason why we should view the departure of the Speaker, albeit only for a day, with considerable concern?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Before the right hon. and learned Gentleman develops his argument too far, I should tell him—I suppose that I may have to declare an interest—that Standing Order 3(2) indicates that in the absence of the Speaker,

"the Chairman of Ways and Means shall perform the duties and exercise the authority of the Speaker in relation to all proceedings of this House".

Mr. Forth: I am most grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You are hinting at delicate territory. I hope that we will not be forced to make any kind of judgment about whether we would regard the absence of the

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Speaker as being in any way detrimental to the House, given that you would then act wholly and fully in his place.

I want to touch on one or two of the Speaker's other responsibilities. In relation to the Lords, "Erskine May" says, on page 189:

"The chief function of the Speaker in relation to the House of Lords is to consider bills brought from that House and Lords amendments to Commons bills to see whether they infringe the financial privileges of the Commons".

I am sure that you will confirm, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that as Chairman of Ways and Means you will exercise in all matters the full powers that Mr. Speaker would otherwise discharge. However, the House will want an assurance—perhaps it can come only from you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, even in the light of the Standing Order that you quoted—that there is no responsibility, role or power exercised by Mr. Speaker that you cannot exercise in his absence.

We want that reassurance because there may be circumstances in which it could become relevant. I would welcome your guidance on that, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

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