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Mr. Bellingham: Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, when an approach is made qua Speaker to No. 10 or to a Department, it is surely made from the Speaker's office and the office itself carries that authority? In that light, surely it does not matter too much whether the Speaker or the Deputy Speaker is in charge?
Mr. Hogg: That is the point that Mr. Deputy Speaker is putting to me, and I accept it. When I think back to my days as a Minister, I was conscious—and my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) would confirm it—that a request from the Secretary of State carried more weight than one from a Minister of State, even if the Minister of State in question happened to be my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal. It is sometimes necessary to deploy the full weight of the office.
Michael Fabricant: Surely my right hon. and learned Friend is not impugning the integrity of No. 10 Downing street! Surely he is not saying that it would need the weight of the Speaker, rather than the Deputy
Speaker acting qua Speaker, to take a rational decision. Surely he is not saying that Downing street would be swayed by such an action.
Mr. Hogg: I am sorry to disappoint my hon. Friend, but I am indeed saying precisely that, and I know that he will be shocked. Although I make no express or implied criticism of Mr. Speaker, Mr. Deputy Speaker and colleagues, I cannot be so generous to No. 10. I ask myself the question whether No. 10 is likely to be more embarrassed by refusing a request from Speaker qua Speaker than it would be by refusing one from the Deputy Speaker. We can make our own judgments about that, but many will believe that the authority of the office adds to the force of the request.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I should tell the right hon. and learned Gentleman that Mr. Speaker has ensured that No. 10 did give a response in respect of the particular day on which the Speaker's absence was to be debated. It seems to me that the point has been proved. In seeking to split the hairs of such judgments as I have made, the right hon. and learned Gentleman should know that, if he is worried that the Deputy Speaker does not possess the full authority of the Speaker, I may be tempted to exercise my authority in the use of Standing Orders to demonstrate that I do indeed have the fullest powers.
Mr. Hogg: I fully recognise that when a Member is not in order, you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, possess the full powers. That is why I hope that I have carefully remained in order. However, so that I do not trespass on your patience—I would not want to do that, Mr. Deputy Speaker—I have several other points that need to be made.
Mr. Bellingham: I do not wish to be pedantic, but does my right hon. and learned Friend believe that, in dealing with issues of grave urgency, Mr. Speaker himself is likely to telephone No. 10, or will discussions take place within the Speaker's Office? It was probably the Speaker's secretary who made the call, through the usual channels. It is the collective weight of the Speaker's office, including the Chairman of Ways and Means and the other Deputy Speakers, that adds the requisite weight in these circumstances.
Mr. Hogg: I do not wish to exhaust your patience, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I have a feeling that if I go into the detail of what happens in the Speaker's Office—I do not know, but I assume it is like a Secretary of State's office—you might say that I was trespassing too far. Indeed, your eyes seem to signal that that is the case. That being so, I am minded—if my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Norfolk (Mr. Bellingham) will forgive me—to move on to my next point. I shall skirt over the subject with some caution, because it goes to the prolixity of Members. Mr. Speaker, in person, has made clear his desire to ensure that Government Front Benchers do not go on too long, especially in their response to questions—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I cannot accept that as a point that is relevant to this debate. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman thinks back—as an assiduous
attender of the Chamber—he will realise that he has heard such exhortations from all the occupants of the Chair. I do not accept that as an argument relevant to this debate.
Mr. Hogg: I was making a slightly different point, and it goes to the authority of the office. Mr. Speaker himself—as you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, will be the first to acknowledge—has said to a number of Front Benchers, on both sides, "Too many questions and too many answers". That is a very good thing, too, and that is why we do not want Mr. Speaker to be away for too many days. He has put a curb on the mouths of Front Benchers on both sides, and that is a good thing, but it requires the weight of Mr. Speaker himself—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I must correct the right hon. and learned Gentleman. That depends entirely on the Standing Orders and the way in which the occupant of the Chair, whoever it is, interprets them. I do not want the right hon. and learned Gentleman to pursue that line of argument.
Mr. John Gummer (Suffolk, Coastal) rose—
Mr. Hogg: I shall give way to my right hon. Friend.
Mr. Gummer: Perhaps I may assist you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and my right hon. and learned Friend on that point. But a fortnight ago, I had occasion to intervene to ask whether it was acceptable to have a guillotine that was so tight that the Minister was not able to finish explaining her amendment before we voted. The occupant of the Chair was one of the Deputy Speakers, and I was happy to be assured that the Speaker—spoken of as the office itself—would take seriously the issue that had been raised. That is an indication in this instance. However, it is right to say that if the Speaker were known not to be present for a period of time, the office itself would be significantly diminished.
Mr. Hogg: That is true, because—and I mean no disrespect to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker—the Chairman of Ways and Means and his colleagues are the deputies of Mr. Speaker, and we do not want him to be away from the House more than he must. That is not a criticism of the occupant of the Chair, but a recognition that Mr. Speaker, qua Mr. Speaker, adds something extra to the proceedings of the House. However, I realise that you do not wish me to go on further about the matter of prolixity, Mr. Deputy Speaker, so I shall turn to the matter of the choice of amendments.
I was put in mind of the subject by what my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal said about the guillotines. I shall explain the relevance in a moment—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am afraid that I must rule the right hon. and learned Gentleman out of order if he wishes to discuss the powers of selection. That cannot be relevant to the absence of Mr. Speaker. Once again, the Standing Orders tell us that the Chairman of Ways and Means or other Deputy Speakers have the full powers of selection. Indeed, they are exercised on many occasions.
Mr. Hogg: I understand, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I would be the last person to challenge your ruling. I shall therefore move on.
Mr. Bercow: Leaving aside the issues of deterring prolixity—on which subject we have been admirably reassured by your good self, Mr. Deputy Speaker—and of the powers of selection, can I interest my right hon. and learned Friend in the relevance of the subject of the business on Wednesday, for it is to that day that the motion relates?
Does he think it a matter of legitimate concern to Members that although we are not scheduled to have a vote on that day, there will be an important debate on the Floor of the House on the European Union? Given the constitutional significance of that debate, is it entirely seemly that it should take place on a day on which the Speaker is absent?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. That point is absolutely irrelevant. The authority of the Chair is such that whoever is occupying it can cope with any eventuality of that kind.
Mr. Hogg: I defer, of course, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to what you have just said, but I understand my hon. Friend's personal regret for the fact that Mr. Speaker will be away on Wednesday. My hon. Friend has a ten-minute Bill, and I know that he is anxious that Mr. Speaker should personally hear what he has to say on domestic violence. All speeches are, of course, addressed to the Chair.
Mr. Bercow: I am most grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for making that point. He has been my generous and unpaid consultant in so doing, for he knows that my natural self-effacement and reticence prevented me from making any reference to that important point.
Mr. Hogg: That is why I felt compelled to make my remark. I know that my hon. Friend is a very modest man who would not wish to draw attention to himself.
I shall turn to something slightly different, and to a point that is personal to the Speaker. Mr. Speaker represents a Scots constituency—Glasgow, Springburn. That, no doubt, is why he is to receive a doctorate, honoris causa, from the university of Glasgow. That gives Mr. Speaker a very special position in safeguarding the rights of English Members against oppression from Scottish Members.
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