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Mr. Andrew Turner: Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Mr. Hogg: May I develop my argument, then I shall of course give way?
My point is becoming of particular importance now that a Secretary of State who represents a Scottish constituency has been put in charge of English health.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The right hon. and learned Gentleman must not get himself into the position of appearing to question the impartiality of the Speaker in his relationship to any Member of the House.
Mr. Hogg: I was not, indeed, doing that.
Mr. Forth: Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Mr. Hogg: I shall, but I must first give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Turner).
Mr. Foulkes: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. On five occasions that I have counted, the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) has said that he accepts your ruling, and has then gone on to challenge it in what he says. Since you are acting with all the powers of the Speaker, as you have told us on a number of occasions, is it not about time that the right hon. and learned Gentleman had the courtesy and grace to accept your rulings properly?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. It is my responsibility to try to keep to order within the terms laid down by the Standing Orders. I am seeking to do that. I have no doubt that the right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) will respect the judgments that I have made and that we will make progress.
Mr. Hogg: Indeed I will, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Had I not done so, I feel confident that you would have been the first to tell me. Whenever you have indicated that I was trespassing rather overmuch on your patience, I have moved on.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. It is not a matter of trespassing on my patience, but of stepping over the bounds of the Standing Orders of the House. That is the only thing of which I am guardian. My personal considerations are totally outwith the scope of the debate.
Mr. Hogg: I am deferring to your rulings on what is in or out of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Whenever I may have strayed out of order, you have been kind enough to indicate in the most courteous manner that I have done so, and I have, I hope, moved on properly to another subject so as not to run, in any way, the risk of incurring your displeasure.
Mr. Andrew Turner: I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for giving way. He has mentioned that the degree will be conferred at the university of Glasgow, which, as we know, is in Scotland, and which is therefore some considerable distance from this place. My concern is that the terms of the motion may be impaired, or even contravened, if, for example, there were to be serious travel problems for Mr. Speaker on his return from Glasgow to England on Wednesday, or even the following day. He may not be able to get back—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman would have to get up a lot earlier in the morning to fool me on that point.
Mr. Hogg: The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight had not occurred to me, although, knowing British railways, it should have done. In the Government wind-ups, it would be extremely helpful if we could be told that a manuscript
amendment will be tabled to the motion, either today or to deal with the situation on Thursday, should it occur, to excuse Mr. Speaker for a further day against the possibility that rail strikes or other inauspicious circumstances may prevent his return on Thursday. That is an important point and I am ashamed to say that it had not occurred to me.
Mr. Forth: I may be able to help my right hon. and learned Friend on the question that he posed a moment ago as to the provenance of the honour that the university is doing Mr. Speaker. From my memory of the document that I saw a few moments ago, which was furnished by one of my hon. Friends but is now, sadly, with Hansard for the greater accuracy of the record, I believe that the citation referred to Mr. Speaker both in his capacity as Speaker of the House of Commons and as Member of Parliament for Glasgow, Springburn. There was a duality to the citation, which honoured Mr. Speaker in both regards. I hope that is helpful.
Mr. Hogg: Indeed, and it makes it even more important that we do nothing to put at risk the granting of that honour, so I shall support the motion, my reservations notwithstanding.
As I know that other right hon. and hon. Members want to speak, I shall draw my remarks to a conclusion simply by saying that the honour is both to the Speaker and also to the House. The House is pleased to see Mr. Speaker honoured in such a way, because he has done a lot to protect and preserve the rights of Back Benchers. It is a good thing that he is being honoured, yet at the same time we do not want to lose him for very long.
Mr. Bercow: I am extraordinarily grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend, who has been generous in giving way. Given the importance of this place and of the speeches made in it as a means whereby one colleague can persuade and, occasionally, even convert another, will my right hon. and learned Friend accept that, as a result both of the intellectual content of his speech and of his personal eloquence, I, a sceptic on the subject of the motion, am duly persuaded. There can be no greater tribute to the quality and power of my right hon. and learned Friend's mind and mouth.
Mr. Hogg: It goes without saying that I am deeply flattered by that observation. May I also express the hope that my hon. Friend will address the House, so that we can know in detail the reasons for his conversion?
Mr. George Osborne: I note in passing that my right hon. and learned Friend should be cautious of the conversions of the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow)—my good friend.
To return briefly to an issue touched on by my right hon. and learned Friend a few moments ago—the possibility that the Speaker may not make it back for Thursday—given that the House has new hours and that we sit earlier on Thursdays, and the likelihood that the Speaker may be attending a dinner or similar occasion
held in his honour on Wednesday evening, will that not make him even more vulnerable to travel problems on his return to London?
Mr. Hogg: It certainly will, and I am sure that Members on the Treasury Bench would like to deal with such points when they make their respective wind-ups.
Mr. Andrew Mitchell: I am not quite so persuaded as our hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow), but the eloquence of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) has moved me considerably further towards support for the motion. He has been probing the extent of the likelihood that Mr. Speaker may not be able to return on the same day or indeed for the following sitting day. Has my right hon. and learned Friend given any thought to the possibility that, as a result of this honour and award from Glasgow, many other universities throughout the British isles will also want to honour our Speaker—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We are discussing a motion about the Speaker's absence on 18 June. Other occasions will be dealt with separately.
Mr. Hogg: That was entirely the point that I was about to make to my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr. Mitchell): one can deal only with particular applications on their own merits. If there be another invitation for a particular day, the House will wish to discuss it, but now is not the time to do so, because that would be to stray out of order in a very serious manner.
I have said that the House owes Mr. Speaker the recognition that he has fought for the rights of Back Benchers, which is a serious point. It is also the reason why we do not want to spare him for more than a day. The rights of Back Benchers are under constant pressure from the Government and we want Mr. Speaker here permanently to fight for our rights.
Mr. Gummer : Has not my right hon. and learned Friend reached the position at which he can make that point and still be in order? The House chose Mr. Speaker, rather than any other possible candidate, because it saw him as being, of all people, the person most able in the circumstances to defend the rights of Back Benchers and, therefore, in that sense, the persona of the Speaker is separate—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman has sufficient experience of the House to know that he is trespassing on very dangerous ground indeed.
Mr. Hogg: Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I do not wish to cut across your rulings, but the general point is that, sometimes, the authority of the office is necessary to carry the weight and influence that we require. I speak as a former Minister, conscious that the weight of the Secretary of State—rather than myself, as a Minister of State—was sometimes required. In the end, that is what I am saying: we do not want to spare Mr. Speaker from the House for more than one day, but we are pleased to do him honour.
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