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Mr. Forth: I understand why my hon. Friend is struggling a little on this issue as, sadly, the Deputy Leader of the House did not seek to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, at the outset of this debate. If he had done so, he would have done the House the courtesy of explaining why his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales and part-time Leader of the House was not here. Perhaps my hon. Friend would give way to the Deputy Leader of the House to allow him to do so?
Michael Fabricant: I would be happy to do so. Perhaps the reason that the Leader of the House is not here is that he is only part-time. Does the Deputy Leader of the House wish to intervene?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman should be careful. Were he to sit down, I might be tempted to think that he had finished his speech.
Michael Fabricant: I would not wish you to think that, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for one moment.
Mr. Hogg: Will my hon. Friend consider the fact that the motion is in the name of the part-time Leader of the House, and in his name alone? In those circumstances, does he not agree that we should expect the part-time Leader of the House to be in his place?
Michael Fabricant: On that, I seek your advice, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as you are acting qua Speaker at the moment. Is it in order? It seems most unusual. Normally, on a motion, one would expect to see both the name of the Leader of the House and the Deputy—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman might know that any Minister can move a motion of this sort on the Order Paper, and any Minister can speak for another Minister. If it would assist him, however, I can tell him that the Leader of the House is currently at an introductory meeting with Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Hogg: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You have been kind enough to indicate where the part-time Leader of the House is. Does that indicate that as a general rule Ministers who have put their names to a motion but are not able to be in the Chamber should write to inform the Chair of where they are? If that is the case, we will want to ask the occupant of the Chair where the absentees are as a matter of general practice.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I think not. I suggest that the right hon. and learned Gentleman searches his memory
about his own record on that matter, which might help to inform him of the procedures that Ministers follow on these occasions.
Mr. Andrew Mitchell: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Given that the motion was tabled only relatively recently and that the Leader of the House must have known that he would be absent during the debate, would it not have been a courtesy to the House if the Deputy Leader of the House's name had appeared on the motion?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I think that I have already ruled that the name that appears is not significant. Both Government and Opposition Members often speak to a motion to which their name does not appear, although other Members' names do.
Michael Fabricant: I think that the House and you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, would welcome it if I moved on a little.
Mr. Andrew Turner: My hon. Friend referred earlier to the possibility of the Deputy Leader of the House—
Mr. Turner: My hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) referred to the possibility the full-time Deputy Leader of the House making an intervention. Is there not a sad lacuna in Standing Orders that prevents hon. Members from sitting down to allow Front Benchers to intervene—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. May I say respectfully to the hon. Gentleman that I do not think that I need such advice on procedure at this time?
Michael Fabricant: I shall move on and refer again to the excellent document that is obtainable from the Library of the House of Commons.
Mr. Anthony Steen (Totnes): Free of charge.
Michael Fabricant: It is obtainable free of charge, as my hon. Friend says. The document features a nice picture of the Speaker in full regalia, and I hope that he will wear that or something similar in Glasgow. A picture of the Speaker's grandson is shown on the back cover of the document.
Mr. Andrew Turner: Will my hon. Friend give way?
Michael Fabricant: My hon. Friend is trying my patience but I shall give way.
Mr. Turner: My hon. Friend refers to the regalia that Mr. Speaker will wear when the degree is conferred. Is it not normal for those on whom degrees are conferred—
Mr. Turner: Is it not normal for graduands to wear the robe and gown—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have had to rule the hon. Gentleman out of order on four out of four
interventions. His comment cannot be relevant to the motion. I hope that the hon. Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) will not draw too heavily on the book that he has with him.
Michael Fabricant: I shall not, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall quote only one sentence because it is key to the issue and the philosophical question of whether it is right for Mr. Speaker to be given leave of absence from the House on Wednesday.
- "It is because the Speaker represents the House of Commons, which itself represents the people of the United Kingdom and is the safeguard of the fundamental freedoms of the country, that he or she is treated with honour and dignity."
Michael Fabricant: My hon. Friend raises an interesting point but I argue that Mr. Speaker is probably receiving the degree primarily because he is Speaker of the House. I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow) is nodding in agreement.
Mr. Osborne: I do not want to cross my hon. Friend but I am not sure whether it is entirely clear that the university of Glasgow—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We cannot go down that particular lane.
Michael Fabricant: I am grateful for your protection, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
I realise that the exact terms of the motion refer to the Speaker being given leave of absence on Wednesday 18 June. If my hon. Friend's idea were really borne in mind, the motion would have referred to the Speaker and Member of Parliament for so on and so forth.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have just said that the point made by the hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) should not be borne in mind at all.
Mr. Steen: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have been following the debate, as I am sure that you have. Will we have such a debate every time Mr. Speaker leaves the precincts or is this a one-off debate so that we can adjust to the situation and decide whether to join in or not?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has not been following the debate for quite as long as me. This is a one-off occasion. We do not know how many times the occupant of the Chair or any Member of the House might be so honoured.
Mr. Forth: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. For absolute clarification, I hope that you will confirm that Standing Orders require that each time Mr. Speaker needs to be away from the House, except on Fridays, such a motion must be put before the House,
debated and voted on, if necessary. I hope that you will confirm that each occasion of absence, other than on a Friday, is a matter for individual treatment.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I can, indeed, confirm that. It is why there is a motion on the Order Paper that need, or need not, be debated according to circumstances.
Mr. Bercow: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am sorry but my brow is furrowed and I am frankly troubled by this afternoon's events. I seek assurance and I would be appreciative of your guidance. It was helpful that you advised us that the right hon. Member for Neath (Peter Hain) was holding the first of his meetings with Mr. Speaker this afternoon because the right hon. Gentleman did not tell us that himself. On a point of procedure and with regard to what might be described as old-fashioned parliamentary courtesy, would it have been appropriate for the right hon. Gentleman either to speak to the motion or to explain why he was not doing so, given that although he knew that he could not be here now, he did manage to be present for the Deputy Prime Minister's statement?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I have already explained that the appearance of Ministers' names on a motion does not necessarily indicate that all or any will be present to move it. I do not think that there is any difficulty at all or that we can continue to go over this ground. If the hon. Gentleman continues to have a furrowed brow, I suggest that he takes up the issue with his hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas Winterton), who is Chairman of the Procedure Committee.
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