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Mr. Andrew Turner: I should like to speak to amendments Nos. 145, 146 and 147, which stand in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field), who is not in his place at the moment.
I am curious about why the Government believe that it is necessary to make regulations to provide for something set out so clearly in the Bill. The amendments would remove from the Government the obligation to make such regulations. If the Minister says in his response that there are different ways of making regulations to make provision for what is set out in clause 54(1)(a) and (b), subsections (2) and (3)(a) and (b) and that Ministers need more time to work out the best way of effecting those provisions, I will be interested to hear it.
For my part, I believe that the clause is immensely clear, simple and brooks no variance of interpretation from what most of us would conclude from reading the words in the Bill. The amendments simply provide that, instead of regulations requiring applications to be accompanied by a fee and prescribing the level of fee, the local authority may require those applications and prescribe the amount of the fee.
Instead of regulations requiring the holder of a premises licence to pay the relevant licensing authority an annual fee, the licensing authority itself may require the holder of a premises licence to pay the annual fee.
The other issue in the amendment is the size of the fee, which may vary hugely from place to place. Local authorities are concerned that the fee set may be inadequate to meet their reasonable costs in licensing and enforcing the regulations made under the Bill. The Government have said that they wish to prescribe a scale of fees, and it is likely—perhaps the Minister will clarify the point in reply—that that scale of fees will make it difficult to distinguish between different authorities and the costs associated with the work that they are doing. A licensing authority that spends a great deal of money advising applicants in advance of the licences about conditions that may be acceptable, and assists them in drawing up the statements that must accompany licences, will find it easier to deal with licence applications once they are lodged. However, a local authority that does not do that will find licence applications more difficult to deal with. Similarly, a local authority that does not spend much on enforcement will be able to make a profit from the fees prescribed by the Government, but it may not be providing a very effective service. However, a local authority that spends much time and energy on enforcement will find it necessary to charge a higher fee. I hope that the Minister will provide some clarification about the level and detail of the fees, and the extent to which they may vary from place to place.
My second point was addressed by my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss) and the hon. Member for Torbay (Mr. Sanders),
and I wish to reinforce it. The comparison has been drawn—and it is fair—between the rights of someone who opposes a licensing application following a provisional statement and someone who is in hospital at the time that a planning application is made. There is no provision in planning law for someone to revisit an application after construction of a premises and say, "Hang on, I was in hospital at the time of the application and I would not have agreed to the premises being provided for the purposes of a pub. Instead, I would like you to arrange them to be used for the purposes of a nursing home." That is not allowed in planning law, so why should it be allowed in licensing law? Why should someone who has been in hospital be able to say, "Well, you may have invested £1 million or £2 million in building a night club, or a pub or a cinema, but I do not feel that it is appropriate for the premises to be used for those purposes, despite the fact that you made it clear all along that that was your intention."?9.45 pm
Mr. Kevan Jones: The hon. Gentleman's example is rather frivolous and stupid, like many of the other examples that he gave in Committee and earlier tonight. If a provisional licence is granted by the licensing authority, the reasons for changing it would have to be fundamental, not the simple absence of the person from the first hearing. If the licensing authority overturned a provisional licence for frivolous reasons, the applicant would be able to take the issue to the magistrates, who would reverse the decision.
Mr. Turner: I accept that, but I am trying to understand exactly why it is necessary to have a two-stage procedure at all, without the clarity and guarantees that someone would need before undertaking an important investment. As my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire suggested, people would not be willing to undertake such investments without reasonable certainty that the investment would be viable.
One of the Bill's purposes is to encourage investment in the entertainment industry.
Mr. Jones: Is it not the case that the only occasion on which a licensing authority might revoke a provisional licence is when there are major changes in, for example, a development? Surely we should welcome that requirement. If a developer changes a proposal, local people should have a say.
Mr. Turner: Of course that is justified if there is a major change in what the hon. Gentleman and I have fallen into the trap of calling a provisional licence. The problem, uncertainty and fear for most developers is that the provisional statement will not be followed up by confirmation of a licence in broadly the same terms.
Mr. Jones: The hon. Gentleman should tell us what the difference is between that and the present situation. For example, if magistrates give a provisional licence and there are major changes, people can object when it returns for a full hearing at the magistrates court.
Mr. Turner: As I hoped I had pointed out in answering the previous intervention, where there are major changes, there should be a second bite at the cherry. Essentially, a new or different licence would be being asked for. People who undertake major changes in the course of construction do so at their own risk, as do people who depart from planning permissions in the course of construction. They have to ask either for an amended planning permission or a new one. I accept all that.
The difficulty will arise when people construct premises broadly in line with the provisional statement only to find that there is a danger that the full licence will not be granted.
Mr. Jones: If a developer obtains a provisional statement for his licence and does exactly what he said he would do, the chances of any licensing authority overturning him would be very remote. If an authority did, the case would be thrown out when it went to a magistrates court.
Mr. Turner: The simple answer is that I do not know whether the chances of the statement being overturned are remote, and I certainly do not know whether such a decision would be overturned in a magistrates court. It has been known for control of a local authority to change in the course of construction of a major investment project. The representatives of the ward in which the project is being constructed may change. There is every possibility of a change being made between the provisional statement and the granting of the full licence. As to whether that is just, and as to whether the magistrates would throw a case out, I have no way of telling. What I do know is that anyone who intends to invest a large sum of money in a major project wants some certainty of achieving what the investment is intended to achieve. That certainty is not clear in the procedure set out in the Bill.
If the Minister intends to say, as the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) has implied, that a local authority would be unable to issue a licence in the terms of the provisional statement and that the magistrates would, or would be likely to, throw out a decision by a local authority not to issue such a licence in the terms of the original statement, I shall be likely to accept what he says
Mr. Jones: If an imaginary person has been in hospital and is the only person who comes forward to object to the provisional statement, and if the developer has done exactly what he or she said they would do, the idea of a licensing authority overturning the developer will be remote. If the case then went to a magistrates court, it would surely be very unlikely that there would be grounds for overturning the statement. Is that not the case at present with magistrates' provisional licences?
Mr. Turner: I cannot say what the position is now, or that it is as the hon. Gentleman has asserted, although I have no reason to argue with him.
However, the rest of the hon. Gentleman's intervention was exactly the same as his previous intervention, so my answer is exactly the same. If, when the Minister replies to the debate, he tells us that there is no prospect of a local authority being able to refuse to issue a licence in the terms of the provisional statement and that, if it did so, the court would be extremely likely to throw out the decision, it will make me much happier than hearing it from the hon. Member for North Durham, expert though he must be by virtue of his former position in Newcastle.
Dr. Howells: This is a large group of amendments dealing with various aspects of premises licences, provisional statements and fees. I shall do my best to cover that extensive ground.
On provisional statements, the amendments address two matters, which the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss) articulated well: the anxiety that an application for a premises licence could not be made in advance of a building being constructed, or of its imminent construction; and the desire to give developers greater confidence that their investment in any new development will be secure, by restricting the opportunity to make representations on an application for a premises licence.
The hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire made a lot of sweeping statements about the fact that we had not listened to industry. In fact, the Department has held extensive consultations with the British Beer and Pub Association at official level. I, too, have met BBPA representatives to discuss their proposals since we gave undertakings to hold further consultations—although I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is listening.
On amendment No. 38, nothing in the Bill prevents an application for a premises licence from being made in advance of a building being constructed or extended. The amendment would add the words "existing or proposed" to the description of the premises for which a plan must be provided with an application for a premises licence. The fact that under clause 17 a plan of the premises must accompany the application for a premises licence does not mean that the premises—a building—must currently exist. If the plan describes proposed premises, an application may be considered and, when granted, the premises licence could be given a future start date. It is not, therefore, necessary to state "existing or proposed" in the Bill.
Clause 28 provides that where premises are being, or are about to be, constructed, extended or altered for use for licensable activities, a person interested in the premises may apply to the licensing authority for a provisional statement. Where that person is an individual he or she must be 18 or over. A provisional statement is a statement issued under clause 30 and provides those engaged in, or about to be engaged in, construction or development work at premises to be used for licensable activities with a certain degree of assurance about their potential trading conditions. As the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire said, that is where we enter difficult territory, because we are talking about balance. The hon. Member for Torbay (Mr. Sanders) also recognised that fact.
The matter is important because, as the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire told us, millions of pounds are involved. The hon. Member for Torbay rightly drew our attention to the fact that such money could come from public funds as well as from private investment. Developers or property owners who wanted to construct, alter or extend premises might be reluctant to invest their money if they had no degree of assurance that the premises could be used to carry out the intended business.
An application for a provisional statement must be accompanied by a schedule of works, which must include a statement of the particulars of the premises and the licensable activities for which the premises are to be used. It must also include plans of the work being carried out and such other information as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State.
Amendments Nos. 42 to 44, in respect of clause 28, and amendment no. 45, in respect of clause 30, are at the heart of the revised procedures proposed by the businesses engaged in such developments. Before I explore the detail, I shall make some general points.
If a developer knows precisely what licensable activities the development will be used for, what hours it will be open and who will operate it, it may be entirely possible for him to seek a premises licence. He would merely indicate that he did not want the licence to come into effect until a later date. Nothing in the Bill will prevent that, so provisional statements are relevant when there is a lack of certainty about precisely what the new premises will be used for ultimately and, for example, the hours during which activities will take place on the premises.
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