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12.55 am

Alan Simpson (Nottingham, South): There is a great deal to be commended and welcomed in the Bill. Its Achilles heel is not an excess of regulation but the absence of regulations that would make it specifically compatible with the Crime and Disorder Act 1998.

I listened carefully to what the Secretary of State had to say about those who could make representations in respect of licence applications and the ability of local authority planning departments to make observations, but the Achilles heel was her concluding comment that every application will have to be judged on its merits. I attempted to table amendments that would have given local authorities a specific power to allow the police and licensing authority to reject applications when they reached saturation point, or when an application overwhelmed the police in terms of their ability to deliver on section 17 of the Crime and Disorder Act. It is not that we did not reach those amendments to vote on them but that Ministers were unwilling to incorporate them into specific Government proposals that would have written them into the Bill.

Dr. Howells: I do not know whether my hon. Friend has been present for these debates, but this subject has been debated more than any other of which I am aware. We have debated the whole business of cumulative effect, which he calls saturation. He has had ample opportunity to take part in those debates, but I am not aware that he did. We have given local residents, police and responsible bodies more opportunity in this Bill to object to licences than they have ever had before, and certainly more than they have currently. I should have thought that he would welcome that rather than resorting to this whinge—which is what it is—which undermines the effectiveness of our negotiations to ensure that what is in this Bill is communicated effectively to those who will form the licensing authorities.

Alan Simpson: The Minister may dismiss my contribution as a whinge, but it is a whinge made and shared by the police, my local authority and many others. They do not believe that those powers are conferred on them within the framework of the Bill. A briefing produced for me by the police states that


That was the basis of their fears about the extent to which we will deliver something unpoliceable that will not be about cultural diversity or creative excitement.

Mr. Kevan Jones: I say respectfully to my hon. Friend that he clearly has not read the Bill, and neither has his local authority. It gives local authorities the power, in licensing policy, to reflect diversity and, for the first time ever, take into account strong objections from local people to the exact problems affecting them. For the first time, they will have a say, which will address the issue of cumulative effect.

Alan Simpson: The grounds for objection in the Bill are on the basis of an individual assessment of applications, the capacity of the premises, the reputation of the applicant, the building standards and

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door supervision. The police say that that does not give them the ability to say no to the straw that breaks the camel's back—something that changes the whole cultural character of what is going on. I am excited about what I currently enjoy in Nottingham, but the city centre management strategy is based on the fact that we have a city centre in which between 5,000 and 10,000 people live. Every Friday night, however, between 105,000 people, which is the estimate of the police, and 120,000 people, which is the estimate of the fire and ambulance services, come in and are part of the culture and dynamism of that city centre.

The police tell me that their ability to police the area is largely dependent on the diversity of clubs, bars, restaurants, wine bars and pubs, most of which are small or medium-sized. They cannot cope with the prospect that applications for huge watering holes serving 3,000 people cannot be turned down. The big breweries are turning up the pressure on local authorities, and authorities are being told by district auditors that if they appeal, and thus risk wasting council tax payers' money, they might be individually surcharged for breaching their fiduciary duty. If a local licensing authority will have the power to refuse an application on the basis of capacity or because the scale of applications would be incompatible with its city centre management strategy, why have the Government resisted the incorporation of such a provision in the Bill?

My fear is that there will not be freedom but a free-for-all, that there will not be a culture of celebration but a culture of violence, and that we will not promote vibrant growth and cultural diversity but crime and disorder. I do not want us to squander the opportunities and advantages offered by other parts of the Bill by failing to allow local areas to say no when they think that they have reached their carrying capacity. Provisions on strategic plans in the Crime and Disorder Act are not specifically spelt out in the Bill. Given that the police say that they fear that the Bill will not give them necessary powers, the House should think carefully before supporting it.

1.2 am

Nick Harvey: When the Bill was brought before Parliament, there was a general view across the political spectrum that legislation on such matters was long overdue. Indeed, there was general good will toward the prospect of legislation. The Government headlined the Bill by saying that it would allow more relaxed drinking hours and perhaps 24-hour drinking in some areas. That measure appeared to be popular and they must have believed that they were on to a winner.

Although the Bill's aim was to be simple and deregulatory, it has ended up being surprisingly complex. Each time a problem has arisen, the solution found has added to the Bill's complexity and produced further problems. Solutions to those problems have created a Bill that has become increasingly cumbersome. I agree that it would have benefited in no small way from pre-legislative scrutiny.

The former Minister for Tourism, Film and Broadcasting handled the Bill's passage with panache and deftness—we congratulate him on his promotion but he will be sorely missed as he moves to his new job—but publicans, musicians, performers and residents

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remain significantly unhappy. I acknowledge that some of the campaigning outside the House has inflated concerns to an extent that is not entirely proportionate and that the perception of several aspects of the Bill is worse than the reality.

Publicans fear possible costs. They fear not the licence fee but the cost of meeting conditions that they believe that they will have to fulfil to be granted licences. Not unreasonably, their perception is that the new system will be more bureaucratic than the one that it replaces. They think that they will have to engage advisers and consultants to help them to put together complex operating plans and that there is more far more red tape inherent in the new system than in previous systems.

If publicans want to change their operating schedule or the names of their designated premises supervisors, the system is more cumbersome and complicated than it used to be. In addition to the concerns of individual publicans, we know that chains of pubs are unhappy that they cannot register their interest in designated premises. We may also come to regret that shortcoming.

The biggest controversy surrounds live performances and entertainment licensing. Despite everything that the Government and the Minister have said, live performers still believe that fewer venues will be available for live music and performance after the Bill is enacted, and their fears may be well founded. The hon. Member for Waveney (Mr. Blizzard) said that we can all accept the shortcomings of the two-in-a-bar rule in the previous set-up, but that there is a desperate need for a de minimis provision. The Government's biggest mistake is not finding an alternative de minimis provision to replace the two-in-a-bar rule.

Although the figure of 250 that was suggested in the other place as constituting a small event is on the high side, I sincerely believe that something along those lines is necessary to avoid small entertainments becoming encumbered by a new licensing regime. It is hard to resist the conclusion that that will reduce the number of live performances. Aside from those considerations, it appears that performers such as morris dancers who move around and perform at a variety of venues in quick succession will be caught up in many more licensing provisions than they were in the past.

The third interest group is the residents who will understandably be aggrieved that residential amenity has not been included in the Bill alongside the other licensing objectives as something that licensing authorities have to take into account when they make their decisions. As we heard, they will also be aggrieved that undertakings from the old regime are not to be carried forward. The ability of a ward councillor to make representations was something that we—myself included—were wrong to exclude when we sensibly wrote out the provision for MPs and MEPs to be able to do so.

On other concerns, we heard that the Joint Committee on Human Rights thinks that there are possible breaches of human rights. I am equally uncomfortable about the statutory guidance. Although it will need parliamentary approval at the outset, it will not need it when the Government want to change it.

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I have concluded that, regrettably, the Government have taken a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Much of the Minister's response to specific points came down to existing law already covering various aspects but not, in truth, being implemented. We might have done better to set about implementing existing laws before seeking new legislation. People will look at the Bill and wonder why the Government concluded, for example, that Punch and Judy shows need to be licensed for public entertainment. They will want to know what motivated them to include that in legislation in 2003. Is it because Punch and Judy is sexist, cruel to crocodiles or shows a lack of respect for law and order? Whatever it is, it is an example of the Government putting too much in the Bill and attempting to do too much. With a heavy heart, I conclude that it should not be given a Third Reading.


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